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 Lol all good.

[[SUPPORT] Donations Needed!]

That's the right place  Yea the donation bar seems to be broken lol  but anyway it seems like we're good, I'm pretty sure our payup day's around the 15th each month, something like that. And cutoff time's around now.

[[SUPPORT] Donations Needed!]

Damn only halfway?

[[SUPPORT] Donations Needed!]

Just donated

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On 9/12/2017 at 10:36 AM, DarkRider said:

2 Days until server fees are due again! If you can kick in please use the donation bar on the board index. If you'd like to upgrade your account to a VIP Membership or Subscription please PM me and I can help you.

 

How close are we right now?

[Missing Notifications and Validation Emails]

Thought I'd mention this, my email notifications as well as my friend's, The_Good_Doctor are now finally functioning correctly Thank you very much Dark!

[Missing Notifications and Validation Emails]

Cool, thank you I'd switch, but my cellphone is attached to my main email, which is more convenient, so I'd like this to be with the rest of my email messages. So I'll stick it out How do they get off blocking sites without our consent? I'm a grown man, I can block sites on my own.

[Community Poetry Thread]

I had no idea there was a poetry thread! Cool beans. Here's some of mine, TES related:

 

Tale of the Snow Prince

By Bard Baldur Red-Snow

 

To understand just who I am, you must go back in time,
To a land in an age oh so long ago, an Island called Solstheim,
With axes and shields and hammers and swords,
They went to battle these elves and these nords,
To punish the elves for heinous and ancient crimes,

The nords had long fought back the elves to these shores,
Led by the prestigious Lord Ysgramor,
Off to the island the nords set their courses,
To finish the rest of the enemy forces,

In the finest steel, they were ready to fight,
But an elf like no other rode in in all white,
This magical warrior was a bane of man,
“The Snow Prince is here! Doom is at hand!â€

The air was so cold, but his magic was colder,
He was more like a Wight, and less like a soldier,
In front of this mer, few Nords could stand,
“The Snow Prince is here! Doom is at hand!â€

When the Snow Prince rode in, the elves would rejoice,
They shouted and cheered all them with one voice,
Why this was so, they could not understand,
“The Snow Prince is here! Doom is at hand!â€

The battle commenced, he slayed many with spear,
And magics so cold, his weapons caused fear,
An easy win was once the nord’s plan,
But “The Snow Prince is here! Doom is at hand!â€

The victory seemed to fall on the elves,
But he killed the mother of a girl that was twelve,
His doom came from youth, not woman or man,
“The Snow Prince has fallen! Doom is at hand!â€

At his back she threw, her weapon would soar,
Her grief gave her strength, the power of Shor,
The Prince’s blood poured, like water or sand,
“The Snow Prince has fallen! Doom is at hand!â€

The child had then proved to be born warrior,
This girl’s name was Finna, daughter of Jofrior,
They saw the Prince fall, the elves had all ran,
The Snow Prince has fallen! Doom is at hand!â€

The battle was over, finished by a throw,
The Nords laid to rest this worthy elf foe,
But remember this fact once all of you go,
The girls name was Finna. Her last name….Red-Snow!

That’s the end of my tale, and now you all see,
Just how I related this story to me,
No matter if it be on land or the sea,
We Red-Snows will fight until Tamriel’s free!

 

Tale of Herkel the Fool

By Bard Baldur Red-Snow

 

Listen to my tale, come and gather ‘round,

In the days of Ysgrim whose voice was weighted with power sounds….

He said to his thanes and to his war-wives,

"Those who walk with me who escaped with their lives,

 

Saarthal has fallen, its many halls wont show,

Who will remember her sights when buried under snow?

Its fountain of voices and tusk house will no longer be sung,

Who will there be to speak of the Jarl of Tongues?

 

It saddens me to think his name unknown to families,

Who will tell how he shot out the womb screaming profanities?â€

It was now that Herkel said he could save it in more than story,

He claimed to know a way to somehow save Saarthal’s glory,

 

He asked if it would be pleasing that if not for very long,

A Nord could say a prayer and see Saarthal in more than song,

Ysgrim knew Herkel a fool, it was no different in this occasion,

But sometimes Kyne would gift a man through what’s called inspiration,

 

So Ysgrim and his men turned their heads towards him to hear the fool speak,

To see Saarthal again? Their interest was peaked,

"Now Saarthal is destroyed, the elves made sure of that!

They did this horrible deed even despite the fact,

 

That I hurled shields like discs from my gut and killed their first rank, true,

And Ericsdotter with icicle curtain dance killed their second out of the blue,

And Broga Mountain farted, then killed their third and fourth next,

And Vjevaka rolled numbers on runes and killed their sixth as if hexed,â€

 

Herkel continued resiting deeds for all six hundred there,

He continued until it hurt to speak due to the cold air,

He finished by saying despite their deeds they couldn’t kill all their foes,

Yet when he stopped he realized now that all of his men had froze!

 

This is why you should listen to your elders when you are told,

That it is polite to interrupt when you feel that you are cold,

"Oh no, I’ve talked so long that they lay dead next to my feet!

They were obligated to listen through oath, now Saarthal’s destruction is complete!â€

 

What a fool he was to think himself a clever man,

Little did he know he aided Dagon in his plan,

He showed up saying, “Haha what a **** up you are Herkel Shield-Fed!

You talked so ******* long all of your comrades now lay dead!

 

You have done what legions of elves could not do to him,

You utterly destroyed the Host of Hoary King Ysgrim!â€

Herkel turned in fear and he began to beg and pray,

Then he said “Wait a minute, this is not your summoning day!â€

 

"Well no [censored], Herkel, the blood and fire is why I’ve risen,

I whispered into elf ears to war to escape Alduin’s prison!

It was not a hard task, the elves hated you anyway,

So now I’m off to destroy and enjoy the rest of my stay!â€

 

Herkel now broke off Olendrug, a frozen hammer on Ysgrim’s belt,

Then in anger struck Dagon on his head, which would soon be felt,

He knocked out the evil demon who once was King of leaps,

Then to the land of dreams he went as he was knocked to sleep,

 

He was not proud of his deed, for he knew he had not won,

He couldn’t kill this demon, and he knew he could not run,

If he woke up soon, he in anger could and surely would destroy nations,

But it was now that Kyne granted him the gift of inspiration,

 

He carried his men in twos back to the halls of great Saarthal,

And knocked Dagon back to sleep so longer could he stall,

Bringing his King and men took him three hundred something trips,

But if his plan would work, not a single man could he skip,

 

He’d make it seem like they were there still ready to fight,

Now he began the next step in his plan while Dagon was out like a light,

He got on his knees now and prayed to Alduin, dragon of time,

And told him of his foolish stupid heinous and terrible crime,

 

"Oh Alduin, please help but do not wake up because of me,

For when you do you consume all, and thats not what I want from thee!

I don’t want you to bring my King back, for that’s the domain of your brother,

And I don’t want you to set back time, tearing it asunder,â€

 

The fool continued to pray hoping for a lucky break,

And it was now that Dagon woke with a great headache,

"How is this that I have been shafted by Molag Bal?

Saarthal stands still in its glory? It’s not destroyed at all!

 

But I thought its halls did not stand and its Tusk house did fall,

And away did the Nords retreat slowly in a crawl.

I once remembered dead was Ysgrim and his warrior band,

Yet now they’re arranged for war and now do they still stand?

 

I’ve pierced the veil too early!†said Dagon as his pants he [censored],

"Even the laws of trickery won’t help if I do that!"

So now he did vanish back to his prison in the void,

And soon did Saarthal’s glory disappear to disaster avoid,

 

It was brought on by a prayer by Herkel now the clever,

But sadly the snows came to bury Saarthal forever,

He did not have comfort for his friends did not still stand,

So to High Hrothgar did he go, for he was a clever man.

 

This is why now if a Nord prays hard enough,

You can see Saarthal’s glory, no longer in the rough.

 

Nord With A Tail

by Baldur Red-Snow

 

There was a khajiit who liked to sneak and visit his neighbor’s daughters,

He’d sing out a ditty and suckle a [censored] but sadly they finally caught her,

With the khajiit, they weren’t discreet, cat sounds were heard through the rooma!

His eyes were a flared, caught in feral stare but that was due to all the skooma!

 

The pa kicked him out with a kick and a shout ,

the nord girl would cry and scream and then pout,

He went to the market and bought a lock for their doors.

Deep in the night the khajiit man came back once there was no longer sun,

 

He saw the new locks and his face gave a smile, as he’d finally have him some fun,

It was easy to manage, it gave him no challenge, to him the nord couldn’t be dumber,

He snuck up the stairs, raised was his neck hairs at the thought of playing with her tumblers!

He made his way in, his face gave a grin, in anticipation of the deed,

 

The girl was so willing, his exoticness thrilling and at once she did take his seed,

The pa slept away, to his great dismay,

When he heard the commotion he charged in to slay,

He grabbed his large axe and our poor khajiit met his end.

 

Sometime had went by since the cat had died, and now the man’s girl was now married,

To a proud nord man, whose name was Stan, a warrior whose foes found quite scary,

And after a while she grew fat with child and at once the pa was so happy,

He gave them both hugs with a smile on his mug, the whole scene was really quite sappy,

 

But once the child came, it wasn’t the same, something was terribly wrong,

He had sharp teeth and nails, its body was frail, and for a nord its tail was quite long, ha!

The pa’s face grew red, for his enemy was dead,

No longer could he face his wrath,

The daring khajiit had in the end got the last laugh!â€

 

Peryite and the Plague of the North

by Bard Baldur Red-Snow

 

There once was a wizard, who sat in his tower,

Surrounded by a blizzard, summoned from his power,

He ruled over these nords, who he daily made run and cower,

In fear they offered their women, for the evil mage to deflower,

 

He sat up in his magical home, screwing all of these maids,

Killing any who tried to save them with their nordic raids,

This wizard was a mer…unto their terrible shame,

Their lives were made miserable, but to him it was just a game,

 

One day the wizard came to town terrorizing once more,

Daring one to challenge him and be sent away to Shor,

None opened their mouths, for they all feared cold death’s door,

So instead they bowed their heads and offered him another whore,

 

This woman was so fair of skin, brown headed and breasts so fine,

A voice so sweet like honey, and she had the beauty of Kyne,

She was in love, in love!…her hand bound already in marriage,

But it mattered not to all around as they stuck her on his carriage,

Her husband would not stand for it, he challenged all who could hear,

"What kind of nords are you? Not true, not these men who bow in fear!

 

Is there not any who will stand with me? To save my love from the mage?â€

No man stepped forward to him, so off he went in rage.

The man grabbed his axe and shield, and to the tower he ran,

But before he reached the blizzard, he was interrupted by a man,

 

This man was old and sickly, his skin terribly diseased,

"Halt young warrior, I can help!" Said the man as his breath freezed,

"How can you help me? You are frail and weak."

"And to that wizard, so are you, his power has reached it’s peak,

 

Defeat you cannot hope for him if magic you do not wield,

But I can render his magic useless with this magic shield,

But this weapon comes with a price, you must do this for me,

Agree to spread my disease to others and your wife will be free!

 

I will give you the power…to spread bile in a shower,

Agree to this then save your miss, now off are you to that tower!â€

The warrior took the shield from him, agreed then off he went,

The blizzard had taken its tole on him and then his spirit bent,

 

He raised his bronze shield to block the snow and to his great surprise,

A ward burst from the front of he and shined before his eyes!

With this protection then did he make his way to the mage,

Armed with a mighty weapon, his town would dawn a new age,

 

With axe in hand as well, he made his way up the long stairs,

He burst down the long tower doors and raised the mage’s hair,

"Who stands there at my broken door? I offer no room and board,

Now stand aside, my word you abide, so I can sheathe my sword!â€

 

"Hands off and away from my woman! Look away from her chest!

I’ve come to take whats mine, for combat is what I know best!â€

"You pale skinned monkey, come to me so I can take your life!

Then I shall raise you from the dead so you can see me with your wife!â€

 

With that the mage summoned fire, in his hands it was magically tamed,

The heat spread through the room from him as he cast his mighty flame!

The wizard laughed in triumph as he figured he roasted the man,

But his mighty shield that he did wield left him alive where he did stand,

 

The wizard stood in disbelief as he saw he wasn’t defeated,

The nord summoned a ward and the mer could not come to believe it,

With axe in hand he charged, and blocked the flame once again,

The nord had reenacted the history of mer and men,

 

The mer lay dead and the wife was saved, “No longer a slave!â€, she said,
He saved his wife from violation, then screwed her on the mer’s bed,

The hero released the other girls and walked back to the village,

And in their joy the nords marched off to the lands to the east to pillage,

 

The old man came back and told him to keep the shield but he had to pay,

So now the warrior bellowed out bile with a shout when he went in the fray,

A powerful tongue this man was made and the devils he made diseased,

If they lived through the battle, they spread this sick home, and the old man was quite pleased,

 

The nord was known as the Plague of the North as his fame increased,

No man was mighty enough to beat him, no man no mer and no beast,

He would kill you now or perhaps later on, either way on your flesh crows would feast,

The old man’s brothers always said he was weak, tell that to the mer of the east!

 

Snow Whales of Skyrim

By Bard Baldur Red-Snow

 

"There once was an old tradition, in the land of men so pale,

The Nords used to go off hunting the great beasts called Snow Whales,

These creatures were here in Skyrim, since the return of man,

Procuring all that meat and blubber was the nord men’s plan,

The Snow Whales were so carefree, singing their magic tones,

Hopping round from cloud to cloud up in their cloudy throne!

Oh, but the men of the north had come up, climbing mountains so high,

With spears, ropes and much bravery to bring snow whales from the sky,

But the snow whales had a weapon that they casted from the clouds,

From blow holes they spat joy-snow that covered them like a shroud,

The Nord men became goofy, laughing so hard they held their sides,

They laughed so hard they lost their grip and fell down the mountainside!

This beget more laughing, and camaraderie from the men,

But when the joy-snow faded, their conviction was times ten!

Lining shields with wasabi, or making offensive jokes,

About each other’s sons or giving someone’s wife a poke!

With burning eyes they’d stay angry to make sure they prevail,

"Tonight our women get their paints and we feast on Snow Whale!"

But these measures all had failed them, from mountains they fell low,

For nothing matched the potency of the Snow Whale’s joy-snow,

The Snow Whales were so mighty, a fact they’d clearly shown,

The nords all said, “Lesson learned. Lets leave the whales alone!â€

 

The Word of Heimskr

by ColonelKillaBee

 

 

I alone have been anointed to spread his holy word,

By the Nine to speak for Talos, Legion haven’t you heard?

He’s Talos the unerring, Talos the Unassailable,

How dare you step to me and tell me my god is unprayable?

He’s the one who started your Empire’s whole construction,

But the Thalmor got you writhing in the filth of your corruption!

With Numidium, he caused millions of mer fatalities,

Don’t hate because a man rose from the dung of immortality!

He was once man, aye! And as man he said,

“I won’t stop until you bow or ‘til all of you are dead!â€

“The name is Talos, let me show you the powerâ€

That’s why I preach his mighty word every minute and hour,

Just like their tower he’s gonna knock ‘em down and cause mer to splinter,

Cuz I’m born of the North where my breath is long winter!

I breathe now and reshape this land which is mine,

Cuz he is Talos, not the man, but Talos the Divine!

I still love you Red Legions, Aye love, love!

Even as you all betray me while I watch from above,

Each one of you held….the future of Tamriel,

But now you serve the elves because you’re under their spell,

And there it is friends, the whole ugly truth!

If you think that I’m lying, the treaty is the proof!

The true god of man, raised to the realm of spirit,

That’s why those elves are hatin and they don’t want to hear it,

The idea is inconceivable to our elf overlords,

Not only is a man a god, but that man is a Nord!

Nords were blessed with greatness from the day of our birth,

That’s why the elves can’t tolerate our presence on earth,

Will you let them take your businesses? Your children? Your lives?

The Stormcloaks surely will not! Not while Jarl Ulfric’s alive!

And the Empire does nothing to settle the score,

The Imperial machine makes you bend to the will of the Thalmor!

So Riiiise up, and join Stormcloaks, who are better,

So we, not the elves, will rule Skryrim…FOREVER!!!!!!!

 

 

Friendly reminder that if you do read any of these, don't comment here, comment here: http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1663-poetry-chat-thread/page-4

 

Since the thread's been inactive, thought I'd give a friendly reminder.

[E3 Live Coverage]

Only thing that interested me was witcher. I wish they'd just stop showing the sports. So boring EA, so lame.

 

And Halo repackaging old games. 343 messing up Halo, and selling what Bungie already did right, lol.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Although I love the empire, my heart has always stayed Nord. When I got to choose I thought it over. I had no intention of letting the imperials meddling too much with the affairs of Skyrim and it's culture. But I do not swear Ulfric as my Jarl or high king. I would gladly liberate the whole of Tamriel from the Thalmor, but I would begin with ridding my homeland from it's occupiers.

 

Ulfric is no good as a leader of the land. Since I only see conflict in his eyes and hate. I would do so much more, I would carry my axe with pride and love for my beloved Skyrim. Everyone who wants to exploit Skyrim and limit it's culture has to answer for it's crimes.

 

My Dunmer side look down upon Ulfric for just seeing them as parasites. But my Dunmer side also admires the honour and the pride of the nords.

After hearing his words to galmar when you walk in his palace, I have to ask how do you see only hate? There is of course hate there, but that is for the thalmor and the dominion forces Empire who let them in. And the conflict would be the civil war. As for parasites, they don't contribute to the war effort yet want more help. They don't pay taxes, they dont answer to Ulfric as their agreement says the dunmer refugees are to be self governed, and yet they are still allowed free room and board, yet proclaim because they work (to get money for themselves) that they somehow are contributing? The Hlaalu farm owner, sure, but what is owning a tavern doing for the war effort? Parasites isn't far off or out of their realm of possibility.

[Official Skyrim Character Thread]

https://plus.google.com/photos/110774846673430165356/albums/5788331408178267697

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/110774846673430165356/albums/5824257934547960145?authkey=CO_ElvLS97u08AE

 

 

 

Armor: Enchanted Nordic Carved Armor

Weapon: Struntuz (Storm-Blade) Enchanted with lightning and soul trap

Skills: One handed, block, heavy armor, enchanting, smithing, restoration,

Factions: Stormcloaks, Companions, Dawnguard

Motivation: Power, struggles to control his desire for more power, seeks revenge against the Legion, Loyal to Ulfric and fully believes in the cause.

Worships Talos, Kyne, and Shor.

 

 

 

Character Background

Bodolf Storm-Blade
Nord
Warrior- Sword n' Board
Male
Age 26
Birthday 4E175 During the time of the Battle of the Red Ring


Midyear 12, 4E201

I was born in Cyrodiil, raised in a farm on the outskirts of Chorrol. We live out here to avoid the bandits near the cities. They've always been a problem ever since the great war, or so my father told me. My father fought in the great war, and lost his right arm to an Aldmeri blade, so I had to do most of the work. I did not mind. We storm-Blades were not shy to hard work. My mother had to treat my father's wound regularly with restoration magic. She was a priest, you see. She acted as a battle maiden, healing soldiers in the war.

Thats apparently where they met, and where they started making me at. In a tent before the battle that took his arm. The aldmeri blade was enchanted with lightning and caused him to twitch a lot with pain even to this day which is why ma has to treat him constantly. Ironic huh? A storm-blade losing his arm to a lightning blade...At least thats what pa would say. He tried not to let it get to him by joking about it. He didn't speak about the war much. I just know it has something to do with something called a Concord...or something and its why we worship Almighty Talos in the cellar. Anyway, it doesn't matter. All I need to worry about is the farm

Night

My dad was speaking with someone in the middle of the night. He was wearing some blue armor with chainmail under the cloth. He's not an imperial soldier. He might be a nord, but he talks with a strange accent. Could he be from Skyrim? What is he doing here? I can make out some of what he's saying. Stormcloak. And something about recruiting. What is that? Another Nord clan maybe like us Storm-blades? Pa looked at my window. I think he saw me. What could that have been about?

 

Midyear 14

My old man said that I'm going to Skyrim! Wow, I've never been to the land before. I'm a grown man and I've never been on my own. Wait why isn't ma and pa coming? Does it have to do with that man two nights ago? He said it has something to do with a man called Uric or something Stormcloak. He says he wants me to fight for him, but before I do, I need to know the situation first, learn of the land, the war, etc. But why? Why does he want me to fight for a strange land that I've never been to?

I get that nords come from Skyrim, but I've never been there. I know ma and pa were born there, but this is my home. My mother says she doesn't want me to go. She wants me to go with the Empire and join the legion. I agree. This is where I was born. This is the land I should fight for. My dad says this is why he wants me to learn about the situation there before I pick a side. I agree that I will. Mainly because I always wanted to go on an adventure. Childish, I know but I never really had a childhood. Work work work. This is my chance. Father says he'll begin my training in combat tomorrow.

Suns Height 28

Its been over a month since my training began. How father can fight with one arm and out do me, a younger man with two is beyond my comprehension. My weapon of choice was a sword and shield. His was a greatsword. How in the world does he wield that thing with one arm? During the training my ma showed me how to do a basic healing spell and how to use the fire spell that she uses to start our fires. I dont think I'll be using the fire spell much. I do like the ability to heal my wounds though. Should come in handy on any adventures I have in Skyrim. She also showed me the basics of archery. It might come in handy if I need to go hunting for my own food out in the wilds.

Last seed 10

My training in basic combat is finally done, and we finally begin my journey to Skyrim. My father and mother say they'll take the journey up to the border, then see me off. I wonder how they plan on keeping the farm going without me. Why is it so important to father that I visit the nord homeland? And why in the world would he want me to join a band of rebels? He was an imperial soldier, he gave up his arm for them! Could it have something to do with why we worship Talos in secret?

Its been that way all my life, and I never really bothered to ask why. I asked him why he was doing this and he said he wanted me to make the decision on my own, and not based off of what he says. I tell him fine, and I promised him I'd return in a years time with a decision. Seeing his gruesome wound never really made me shy to the thought of being a soldier. Maybe its my nord blood.

Last seed 14

We reached the border, but I'm not sure what to think. We stumbled across a dead body. It was the same soldier I saw that night talking to my father about the stormcloaks. Who could have done this? Dad said we need to move quickly into Skyrim. He said he changed his mind and that he and ma are crossing the border too. But why? What is going on? He wouldn't say. He just said to start running, so I did.

Are those imperial soldiers? Why are they after us? We did nothing wrong! We've got to get out of here. Maybe father got caught with the stormcloak? That would be bad. Being caught speaking with a traitor. This is just a misunderstanding then, I don't even really plan on joining them as of yet. I'll probably join the imperials like my mother wished. Perhaps I can talk them down. Explain the situa- ma, pa!

******

My parents. They're dead. They were caught in a volley of arrows. Dad died instantly. Ma was mortally wounded. I wanted to heal her, but she never taught me a spell to heal others. Why did this happen? Before mother died, she gave me her amulet of Talos to protect me. I couldn't stay by her side, as arrows were flying at me. I wanted to stay with her but an arrow piercing her eye forced the issue. That image will never leave my mind.

Last Seed 16

Two days later in the 16th of Last Seed, they finally caught me in an ambush. I had been running the entire time. I can't feel my legs anymore, and I'm starving, not to mention severely dehydrated. I finally passed out, and when I woke up, I was completely surrounded with weapons pointing at me. I contemplated fighting them to the death, but an elven mage paralyzed me before the thought got too far. The soldiers say that Occulatus soldiers caught my father consorting with a stormcloak, and said we all were a family of traitors. Just what I feared. They found the talos amulet on me and said I was a stormcloak too. My father may have sympathized with them, but he did not, could not raise a blade with them, and my mother was loyal to the Empire! I was going to make up my own mind! I would have joined these bastards!

The captain said this was not proof of me being a stormcloak, and that I was wearing rags, not a blue uniform. The elf in fancy clothes traveling with them said I was a talos worshiper and he demanded that I be executed with the other stormcloak prisoners they had and die a heretics death. The captain complied. Why? Why are they listening to this elf? Were our people not once enemies? I really wish father told me more about this Great War. They began to drag me to the carriage, but I resisted. The paralysis spell had worn off. I dont know about the war and the situation in Skyrim, but if I live past my execution date, I vow to bring these elves and the Empire to its knees for what they did to my parents. I swear by almighty Talos, if I live past this day, I swear, I will kill them a-- (black out. Bodolf was knocked unconscious and dragged onto the carriage.)

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Lol, you know I couldn't. Hey, did you have to get your first post approved before you could start posting?

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Civil War Arguments

 

The moral and governing failures of the Empire

 
There have been multiple examples of the Empire's failings in history to their people. The relevant ones I'll give are Valenwood, and Morrowind, then later Hammerfell.

"In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn." -The Great War (book)

This was likely possible due to the early negligence of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum, which admittedly was not the Empire's fault, as the Emperor was at the time held captive and was replaced by Jagar Tharn. But even after this happened, the Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. Now, this was a simple error on their part, and no one can truly blame them for this, as the Thalmor are crafty and no one saw this coming. Even so, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethic Cleansing. But After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you'd think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat.

Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC "Dragonborn", abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc's still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell.

Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim's infighting, but not Hammerfell's) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of "invalids" to fight in Hammerfell.

All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was simply an error on their part, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not.

 

After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:

Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.

And the book clearly states:


In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor's state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. The Thalmor wouldn't be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you'd be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it's land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil.

To reiterate.
 
 

http://forums.bethso...orn/?p=22489750

 

 

The “Skyrim cannot survive aloneâ€-argument

 
 
This one is one of the simpler arguments to debunk, because any high school dropout can look at the map and see how silly this argument is. Here. http://www.google.co...9QEwAA&dur=1510

Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they'd need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil. Now many say that there's the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. How do I know this? Tullius himself says at the Empire is currently guarding it's border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to walts in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down "heretics" not their whole army.

Now look at Skyrim's natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain an flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it's treacherous reputation. Here's an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion:

^%5B5%5D In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.^{%5B6%5D%5B7%5D}

In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn't even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Talos's sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic.

Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can't set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they'd be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don't have any islands nearby to do this either. The only possibility they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they'd be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed.

This is why I personally laugh at those who say "without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed." The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.
 

 

The “racist†accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

 
Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

• The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
• Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.
 
Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.
 

http://forums.bethso...elm/?p=22588230
 

 

Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.



Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.
 
 

 

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High Kingâ€-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.

 
An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://forums.bethso...-me/?p=22498185

 

 

Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.


Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

The prisoners don't even say Ulfric's name in Markarth, and as Tdroid said, the Jarl contradicts this book and even says he's the one who caused all this.

 

 

http://forums.bethso...no3/?p=22397367

 

 

And speaking of Markarth, for people saying Ulfric started the whole Talos ban enforcement because of the Markarth incident, you're wrong. Talk to the Jarl. He admits he came to Ulfric and asked for his assistance, and he offered HIM Talos worship, not the other way around. And when the Thalmor found out, Ulfric was left holding the bag.

 

 

“Ulfric misused the Voiceâ€

 
This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: navigation, search
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the dragon language, is the Nordic goddess of the Storm, widow of Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.
 

 

The “Trade being hurtâ€

 
Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still opperates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Actually the Bosmer went along with this of their own will as well. Once the Thalmor have Valenwood and Elsewyr, it's a whole new ball game as far as invading Tamriel.

Morrowind is too weak after all that happened post-Oblivion. The Elves are not foolish enough to attempt to invade Argonia, which had seceded by this bosmer don't want the thampoint. Which doesn't leave a whole lot to stop the Elves from marching right into Cyrodiil, which is basically what caught everyone off guard.

By the time Skyrim starts, the Empire is already in shambles and there's no likely hope of that ever getting fixed. You aren't going to win a war with High Rock and Cyrodiil vs the new Aldmeri Dominion. Stranger things have happened though and we don't really know where Bethesda intends to take this.

Na, The thalmor seized power of the Aldmeri Dominion, which includes summerset isles and Valenwood. The bosmer dont want them in charge any more than the altmer of summerset isles do under their boot.

[Places To Go, Things To See.... Cheese to eat!]

A closeure dealing with the Thalmor would be very nice.

More dead yellow elf bastards for my Nord to kill? Yes, please.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

I find the whole premise of the little island where the Thalmor come from being able to take over the huge landmass of Tamriel to be a bit far fetched. Their threat is small and would be short lived in the best case for them.

Invaders on the Tamriel continent would never last very long, because the entire population would soon revolt under their tyranical rule. History shows us this much.

Summerset Isle is actually pretty big.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120706152112/elderscrolls/images/e/e4/Map_tamriel.jpg

Although I do agree, it would be short lived. Only people that would willingly fight with them is the Khajiit. That's really not enough. Everyone else would eventually revolt.

[Mountain Climbing in Solstheim]

It is...but it's hard as crap. Takes some patience.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Well, Ulfric did give Toryyg the chance to join his side or at least speak out to what he was saying. His followers say he would've joined his side if Ulfric asked, but Ulfric couldn't possibly know that. All he knew of Toryyg was that he was the Empire's posterboy, and that he was weakening his beloved country by suckling the Empire's teets and allowing Thalmor to do what they will. If you ask me, Toryyg got plenty of chances, and Ulfric was done waiting. I would've done the same thing.

He's a man of action. He's not hasty though, as his patience with Whiterun and Balgruuf will show. You can tell from his dialogue with Galmar that he's a patient man, which really makes me think Toryyg really didn't show any interest to Ulfric's cause at all. I think the young king brought it on himself, personally.

Yes, Toryyg had zero chance against Ulfric, thu'um or no thu'um, but that is irrelevant. You gotta look at it from a nord perspective. He followed the ancient law, and Toryyg accepted. Toryyg, as a king under the Empire could have said no. People said that would be a political suicide, but if you look at the people on his side, and the Empires, Toryyg would have had more if a moot was called, and Ulfric still would have lost, and Toryyg would remain King.

Even if you think what Ulfric did was wrong, to me that doesn't matter. No country becomes free without breaking a few necessary eggs. You do what you must. War is not pretty,

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Given all the information you can soak up in the game, I'm pretty sure Skyrim and Hammerfell forming an alliance would be the end of the Thalmor. Why? Hammerfell fought the Thalmor off ALL BY THEMSELVES after the Empire abandoned them. Redguards and Nords in an army, marching on the Elves, it will be glorious. The Cyrodiilic softies can choke on it

Badass barbarian two handed weapon wielding hearty mead drinking vikings + most badass swordsmen in all of Tamriel=Thalmor on their knees begging for mercy!

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Ulfric did not murder the king! He was challenged in the old Nord ways and lost. Deal with it.

Exactly.

There's just something disengenuine about Ulfric Stormcloak. I'm not saying the Imperial side is better but Ulfric didn't inspire me to his plight. Might have something to do with his murdering the king to start his campaign

He's not very inspiring unless you're a nord, I'll admit. Luckily I almost always am. I find it easy to join him as a redguard though. Or a dunmer for the irony, and to show that Dunmer can be valuable members of an independent Skyrim.

And to Nord law, what Ulfric did was not murder.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Welcome to TESA.

Yes, the empire is dying, and Skyrim becoming independent will only accelerate that end. Skyrim by itself stands little chance against the Aldmeri Dominion.... considering that the whole of the empire had to knuckle under to them..... expecting a single province to be able to go it alone is probably just a dream. Skyrim is (apparently) too sparsely populated to put up a real defense against the inevitable invasion, should the stormcloaks actually win....

Of course, I am not real thrilled with the empire either... considering my first exposure to them is sitting in the back of a wagon, heading off to be executed...... Not exactly confidence inspiring....

It's also unrealistic in my opinion to think that Skyrim will try to fight them on their own. They will most certainly look for allies, like Hammerfell, Morrowind (Unlikely, but its happened before) and the Empire. That alliance isn't as unlikely as you may think when you consider that Nords make up a very large portion of the Empire's soldiers. So basically, if I'm being honest, it doesn't really matter who you choose. Both sides will seek alliances and take it to the Thalmor. It's just a matter of which side will make this happen first, and whether you want an independent Skyrim or not. But both sides are equally viable in the long run. The Empire needs the nords more than people realize. They will work together. Ulfric says he'd be willing to if the Talos ban is dropped, which after Skyrim is independent it is. So if a thalmor invasion is on the way, or a human invasion to the Aldmeri is, they'd unite no doubt.

Oh, and thanks! Glad to be a member.

[Stormcloak or Imperial?]

Hello all. This is my first post in this forum.

I'm a stormcloak soldier all the way. Why? I believe Ulfric's cause is right, that the claims of his corruption and greed are false, and that the Empire is dying, and has no chance of defeating the Thalmor the way it is now. I can tell from Ulfric's dialogue with Galmar that he truly believes in his cause and cares for his people. I believe that an independent Skyrim can still work with the Empire in the face of incoming danger, and Skyrim does not have to be under the Empire's boot to work with eachother.

Other groups in TES have done this with much more blood and grudges much more deep between them and have worked together before, so there's no reason to believe the stormcloaks and imperials can't in the event of an independent Skyrim. I believe that those who would sacrifice freedoms for safety don't deserve to be free, and the Empire does not care about its provinces. History has shown this with Hammerfell, and Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis.

They did nothing to help Valenwood from the Thalmor, and they if they have to will sacrifice every province for their own selfish needs. I don't blame them for this, as this is the nature of Empires, but this is exactly why Skyrim must be free of it. It is no longer of any use to Skyrim besides the convenient shield it provides between Skyrim and the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire just doesn't seem like it is up to fight. They seem broken, but the stormcloaks are not. For that reason, and the fact that the Empire allows the injustice of the Thalmor to happen out of fear, I side with the Stormcloaks.

I gave the Imperials a chance before. I ended up deleting my first character because they left me with a bad taste in my mouth after I finished the quest and learned more about the situation. Never again.