An introduction, and a proposal.

[Rowan]

Greetings, fellow modders.

I've been on the official bethesda forums for a while now. Been posting like crazy. In fact, though it may be sad, this virtual world is the main focus of my life right now. I've realized that I spend most of my time here, and playing oblivion. In real life, my grades are suffering, and don't have that many friends at this new college yet. The truth is, I'm having serious doubts about my future in school. I want to travel and learn other things that can't be learned in school. I want to create most of all, and help people. Even save the world!

When it comes to Oblivion my main goal for modding is to create The Dark Spire and all the resources that it needs. You may read more about it here: Dark Spire Basically it's a mod inspired by the Myst games and Stephen Kings Dark Tower series. There will be a massive dwemer tower that the player must find and conquer. It will be filled with puzzles, deadly traps, mysterious technology, and wonders you've never beheld before. This tower will be located on another world. A dying world, long forgotten. You will use a dwemer airship to fly to a portal in the sky which takes you there. That's my vision.

But, realy it comes down to this: I can't make this mod without help. Without the help of this community, I'm nothing, just one guy. I'm learning, slowly, but learning to do modeling, texturing, quest building, world building, dialogue, scripting, the whole works is simply too much for this one guy to learn in the span of a few months. It would take YEARS! And by that time, there will probably be another elderscrolls game out. The problem, or rather my problem is that everyone who has any skill is already working on mods of their own. Perfectly fine, but that means that everyone who has a unique idea for a mod is NOT going to have it made unless they can figure out how to make it on their own with no help. And to be honest, I've gotten less reliable help than I thought I might. This has been quite discouraging, because it feels like people have abandoned me and this idea, which they originally expressed their interest in.

This is where most newbs would give up.

but I'm not going to

One thing has become clear to me. Content is the lifeblood of Oblivion. Even with a bunch of mods that improve immersion, functionality, or organize all your mods and make them work together, without something to do the game is over. However, luckily Oblivion is an art medium, which means that there is infinite potential for creativity.

The problem is this: that I fear the Oblivion modding community may be losing it's interest and energy. Many awesome projects could be abandoned because of lack of interest and lack of help. This would lead to Oblivion's demise. It already feels like fewer and fewer people are posting on the official forums, let alone modding. Some of the people who truly have some skill may be entertaining the thought of "retirement" and many already have left us for good.

So my brilliant solution to this problem is this: to form a sort of modders' coalition or alliance that would mutually benefit from each others skill. We would learn from eachother and complete major projects together. We would all work on one mod at a time until they are all finished. Actually get some work done! As a team we would gather around one person who had a good idea and commit to that project, completing it. When it was done we would move on to the next. As we released more mods, we would grow in skill and hopefully more modders would join us. The point being, that we would all have some common purpose and would be inspired and motivated to do our best. Wouldn't that be amazing and beautiful? Imagine the kind of work that could be done, if all these people united and worked on one thing at a time together.

We could help complete projects like Sands of Destiny, Mesogea, and The Dark Spire. We would vote what project we wanted to tackle next of course. I don't expect mine to be first. I would totally be willing to work on several other people's mods before mine, if they agreed to help me when we were done. That's the whole point.

I'd like to know what you think of this idea. The reason I'm asking is because you've already started an alliance of sorts. I just think that we should become an official team and release some mods together.

What say you my friends!

[WhoGuru]

Welcome to the Alliance Rowan!    I've been watching your Mod since you first posted the WIP.  It's a fantastic idea, one I hope you do find the means to finish.  It's a unique idea.

I think you'll find around here we do tend to support each other, helping out where we can.  Though, there are a few big projects going right now, so help is at a premium.    I'm a novice/noob modder myself, my skills are in writing, not building.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when the two projects I'm currently working on are released, I'd be more than happy to help you out with any writing you'll need for the Dark Spire, Story, dialogue, texts, whatever you'd need.  I'm very interested in the project and would have offered my services before now but for being buried.  

While you're working on your mod, make use of the school here.  You can learn a lot from the scholars and other modders here and questions are always answered quickly.  Who knows, you may find yourself able to do all you need sooner than you think.  

 Glad to have you here, Rowan.  Now, go put a WIP up in the In Progress and Release Mods forum!  

[Rowan]

Hail, WhoGuru!

Glad to have your support.

The theory behind my proposal is that I believe we should all help each other one at a time. For example, I'd be willing to help you finish your mod, and then after it's done, you can help me with mine. But I envision this occurring on a much larger scale. At least 10 or more people committing themselves to one persons project, until it's finished and then starting on another. Instead of the every modder for himself mentality, there is unity and purpose. Efficiency. Everyone does their part and does it well. The modders don't have to worry about getting that model they really need or trying to find someone to help them with a certain script.

May I ask how you plan on finishing your mods if your skills are only for writing? Who will make your models, textures, quests, scripts?? If we had ten different people all skilled in several specific areas, then finishing a mod would be so much easier.

The way we would start is by recruiting the members. These members would need to be skilled in each of the "modding disciplines" In other words we can't, for obvious reasons have 10 writers and no one else. They also must be willing to postpone working on their own major project until it's time comes. But I would think they'd be secure in the knowledge that it's time would come, and at that time, you would have the full commitment and skill of the team to help you. ---After we manage to convince at least 10 diversely skilled people to join, we post a vote, and decide on which mod to tackle first. After it's done we post another vote, and repeat, until all projects are released. Mind you, we would expect high quality work and commitment to whatever project we were currently working on.

I've sent a PM to DarkRider about this idea, and am awaiting his thoughts.

[WhoGuru]

LOL  I am part of a very talented team of modders.  I'm just the writer.  We have a couple builders, a jack of all trades, fantastic Texture artists.  They all donate their time to helping realise the vision we have for An-Arane Cey:  Armor of the Fallen and do an amazing job of bringing my writing to life.

I do believe your idea is good one.  I also think that you would want people working on your mod who share your vision, rather than those who are there to 'get it done' in hopes of getting to theirs sooner.  I think this is one difficulty you would run into.  As well as the often mercurial interest span of modders.    Sometimes they lose interest and move on, sometimes real life pulls them away.  Again, it is a good idea, but I think would be very hard to implement.  Not impossible, but difficult.

You may well find this team of modders you're looking for as the Alliance grows daily.  Don't lose hope and please don't give up on the Dark Spire.  

[DarkRider]

Welcome to the Alliance!  

This Alliance was founded to share knowledge with new and learning modders such as yourself. By getting knowledge into willing hands, the ES community will remain strong. Right now, the decline you see on the official forums is the typical school/holiday decline in ADDITION to the FO3 boom. In time many modders will return and there will always be new blood to learn.

That being said, what you propose, has been proposed before. Many times. Thing is modders are very peculiar beasts. We function primarily as lone wolves each with our own ideas and visions for things we'd like to see accomplished. Pulling together as a huge team, will just never work and not for lack of trying. The most recent one that comes to mind is the Brainstormer's Guild http://www.bethsoft....opic=860750&hl=

They made a good run of it, had a lot of interested folks early on, but interest and committment dwindled. The truly committed folks who will see a project through to completion are much less commen than those who love an idea but won't commit in the long run. And as you mentioned, those who ARE committed to the craft are involved in their own projects.

As a friend, and someone who has been around awhile now, Rowan, honestly what you propose is a dream that will just drain what remains of your hope and your committment. It never pans out. A huge community effort, is just not functional in the practical sense and pursuing it with all your spirit will only defeat you in the end I fear.

However, what IS practical is for you to give the Alliance a try in helping you learn the skills YOU need to finish YOUR dream. Here you will find a collective of modders willing to lend their counsel and resources to help you on the path. It is NOT impossible for you to learn 90% of what you need to know in a few months. I have only been modding since February and look how far I have come. Do not lose faith in yourself, Mate, that is paramount to your success.  

I understand your frustration, I do, modding can be a lonely trial, but if you are committed and continue to learn and work, then others will appear to help you along the way when you ask. But what I always tell new modders who are embarking on a largescale project, be prepared to sacrifice yourself to the modding gods. You and you alone are the deciding force in whether or not your vision is completed. It means many long hours alone in the CS and often very little praise or attention. Be willing to do what it takes to learn what is necessary and to follow through. When you show that kind of spirit, others will take notice and try to help.

Here, we are an Alliance. We will help where we can with instruction and advice, even support and praise. This place is a school for learning the craft, perhaps what you are missing in the official forums you will find here.

[Rowan]

Thank you for your thoughtful words Darkider, and WhoGuru I imagine they are wise and borne from experience. I will learn what I can and do what I can. Hopefully here, I will obtain the knowledge I need. Thank you for creating the Alliance. I see now how much of a good thing it is. My thanks to the people who are willing to teach.

I will post  a proper WIPz thread here soon.

[DarkRider]

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I will post  a proper WIPz thread here soon.

I look forward to following your progress. Always know you have allies here, people who understand the difficult but rewarding path you walk and are willing to help whenever you stumble.  

[Rowan]

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LOL  I am part of a very talented team of modders.  I'm just the writer.  We have a couple builders, a jack of all trades, fantastic Texture artists.  They all donate their time to helping realise the vision we have for An-Arane Cey:  Armor of the Fallen and do an amazing job of bringing my writing to life.

Oh, sorry man. I am familiar with the Lost Sword of the Ayleids. I haven't played it yet, but I plan to. Looks like a great mod.

[WhoGuru]

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LOL  I am part of a very talented team of modders.  I'm just the writer.  We have a couple builders, a jack of all trades, fantastic Texture artists.  They all donate their time to helping realise the vision we have for An-Arane Cey:  Armor of the Fallen and do an amazing job of bringing my writing to life.

Oh, sorry man. I am familiar with the Lost Sword of the Ayleids. I haven't played it yet, but I plan to. Looks like a great mod.

LOL  No worries.   I hope you enjoy Lost Sword when you play!  We had a blast creating her.  This is one woman...    ...who believes in begging and pleading for the talent needed to get a mod to completion.

[Rowan]

Oh, SORRY, again, whoguru.

[WhoGuru]

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Oh, SORRY, again, whoguru.

Don't worry about it!    It's a common mistake, believe me!  I'm used to it!     Just glad to have you and the Dark Tower here with us!  Welcome once more and Happy Thanksgiving!  ...and you can call me Red if you like.    I answer to that as well.

[Vereta]

Welcome, brother, to the Alliance. I don't spend a lot of time anywhere these days (do to Fallout 3 addiction.) but I really hope you can finish your project. It looks to be a lot of fun! Good luck!  

[StormRaven]

Welcome to the Alliance Rowan,

May the alliance aid you in the pursuit of your dreams!

Storm Raven

[Rowan]

Thanks. I have high hopes.

[WillieSea]

Welcome to the Alliance.

I myself am swamped in mods, but I can help in little ways.

Good Luck!

[TheMagician]

Welcome to the Alliance, Rowan.

Like you, I am ambitious and idealistic (never let anyone tell you those are bad things   ) and I understand exactly what you are going through.

But DarkRider has spoken eloquently and honestly about the ES modding community: that is the beast that you have to deal with. It is a wonderful beast, filled with inspiration and brimming over with generosity and good-will, but divided like Hydra with a thousand heads all trying to move in different directions. There is no denying that large-scale mods are enormously time-consuming and require the dedication of a lot of very talented and hard-working people, which is why so few large-scale mods have ever been completed. In all likelihood, most modders will have moved on to the next Elder Scrolls before any of the existing large-scale mods are complete. (I'm a member of two of these, and I've already made my peace with that.) But the important thing, the thing that you have to focus on is the idea.

A powerful idea is like a gravitational field that pulls loose bits of debris into itself. Over time, the field becomes stronger and its pull more forceful until, eventually, it becomes irresistible. The only problem is, this idea has to be the source of its own energy until critical mass is reached and it can continue under its own momentum. The kernel of an idea that later germinated into the Elder Scrolls franchise was initially just such an idea. Early on, it could have easily been abandoned owing to reservations about its practicality and feasibility. But it wasn't, and here we are today. I doubt if anyone could stop people from modding for Oblivion now, which just shows you how much momentum it has built up over the years.

It is important to decide for yourself exactly what it is that you want to accomplish. If your goal is to help others complete their mods so that they will help you complete yours, I'm afraid you are setting yourself up for disappointment. The idea for your mod must be more powerful than that, powerful enough that you are willing to complete it entirely yourself. Not because you will necessarily have to, but because otherwise it will not have enough momentum to find its own way to completion. If you are not willing to complete it yourself, it is unlikely you will find other modders with the same degree of commitment.

And if you are willing to complete it yourself, you have to be realistic about it. If your goal is to create an 'awesome Oblivion mod', then you are imposing artificial limitations on yourself. In all likelihood, as I mentioned, it won't be complete in time to find a large audience as the Oblivion engine is already entering its mature phase. What you can do, and what I do, is to think about your idea in terms of the idea itself, and not in terms of the engine you use to execute it. Start planning your asset creation around the possibility that all of your assets might need to be converted to a different format for use in a different engine (for example, the next version of the Elder Scrolls). There is absolutely no reason to be discouraged by this. If your idea is powerful and you are willing to commit and adapt as necessary there is no reason to believe that it can't be accomplished. Maybe not with the TESIV CS, but entirely possible with the next one, or the one after that. I have already toyed with the idea of using 4 different engines for Shudder (5 if you include a custom built one); for now, I'm using the Oblivion engine, but if a better one comes along, don't be surprised if I decide to jump ship.

The question you need to ask yourself is: is this what I really want to do? Am I willing to commit to this idea so strongly that I'm willing to continue alone in the face of adversity and indifference? Is the idea so powerful that you couldn't stop yourself from working on it anyway? Ideas like that tend to attract interest all by themselves.

[Rowan]

Wise words Magician. You could be right that ES V will come out before my mod is done. But at least I could build the experience and skill I'd need to really give it all I had when the time came. And then perhaps release it for that game as well. You're certainly right that I need to be committed and be willing to finish it all by myself. We'll see what happens.

I am increasingly reminding myself of Roland. I feel like Roland even now. Striving for something out of reach. It's quite dramatic and exciting. Hopefully that will bleed over into my project.

WillieSea, Glad to know there is someone who I can seek guidance from when I have scripting troubles.