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Lore Study Hall


WhoGuru
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Welcome to the Lore Study Hall!

Pull up a chair, grab a mug and ask your questions!

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Is the Lore defeating you? Are you lost in a sea of books, confused about a timeline, period or event and need some direction? Perhaps you're wondering if a story you've created takes existing Lore into account?

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You've come to the right place. We'll answer your questions to the best of our knowledge and see if we can't help you fit your story into and/or around existing Lore. There's usually a way and any Lore hound worth his/her ink stained fingers can find it or at least point you in the right direction.

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I've always wondered, does the Elder Scrolls reply on ghosts as being people who can't move on into the light? Because of an unfinished task, great crime, great loss or not realising they are dead?

Or is there some other view of it in the faith of the Nine Divines.

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From what I've read and seen in game, ghosts are generally two things.

1: Spirits of those who've died with unfinished business. For example, the ghosts of the Blades in Sancre Tor and the Forlorn Watchman in Bravil. Helping them finish their tasks sends them off into the ether.

2: They're also spirits pulled from the realms of Oblivion by sorcerers for summonings, as in Ancestor Ghosts.

After some research in the library, the Mechanics of Magicka has this to say about summoned spirits -

The summoning of a spirit involves the caster magically projecting his will into the Outer Realms, ensnaring a dead spirit and enforcing his will in a manner similar to the Daedra summoning. The result is a spirit summoned and bound to the caster's will. The spirit draws to it the dust and matter within the atmosphere, condensing these materials to create a semi-transparent form in the mortal plane. The spirit is capable of independent thought, though follows its master's orders.

And this on summoned undead/skeletal remains -

The Undead summoned appears from thin air, and seems imbued with life. This is, however, false. Every action performed by an undead minion summoned through the methods of the School of Conjuration is dictated by the summoner, and they exercise complete control of the minion. Their own will becomes a replacement for the deceased's soul, directing the minion as if it were truly living. When the spell wears away, the dead sections summoned fade out of existence to return to where they once lay. It is a form of pseudo-necromancy, so to speak.

Edited by WhoGuru
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Something has been puzzling me for a while now. My new mod takes into account Altmeri traditions such as worship, architecture, celebrations, etc. I placed temples of worship to the 9 Gods and Goddesses and the the one hero god in the mod. One of the gods that raises a particular interest in me was Lorkhan. Because we are lead to believe that Lorhan has been destroyed, would the Elves still worship him, plus seeing as he was an enemy to their ancestors the Aldmeri?

So the question I guess I'm trying to get at is worship to Lorkhan dead? Let me know thanks.

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I would think Lorkhan worshipers are not dead but would no doubt operate in secret, as the Sixth house did. He was an instrument of Chaos who convinced the original spirits to create Nirn, then called an army of violent mortals to himself which he then called Men.

There are two great texts on Lorkhan that can really give you a good feel for him and how pervasive you want worship of him to be.

An Altmeri Analysis on the Aedra of the Imperial Cult, Men, and Lorkhan

The Monomyth

Though Lorkhan was destroyed, he was a god, and could be said to have returned to the Void on his death, so, imo, worship of him still would not be out of the question. After all, can you really kill a being that existed in the void before even the world was here? :pints:

Edited by WhoGuru
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I tried to read that article on the Imperial Library before but when I clicked it nothing showed but all is well now. From what I read, I'll stick to my original plan and make it "seem" worship of Lorkhan no longer exists, but in secret they shall operate. Thanks for the help. :pints:

Edited by WhoGuru
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Quote

I tried to read that article on the Imperial Library before but when I clicked it nothing showed but all is well now. From what I read, I'll stick to my original plan and make it "seem" worship of Lorkhan no longer exists, but in secret they shall operate. Thanks for the help. :pints:

No problem! Glad I could be of assistance! :rofl: Morrowind lore is a particular favorite of mine so I actually know a fair bit about Lorkhan. LOL

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  • 5 weeks later...

Hmm, I can't seem to find this info. I will 'guess' that the Ayleid spoke in the common language that is now used in Cyrodiil? Or mostly the same with the usual changes over time?

Or did they have their own language that has been lost to the ages?

Any help would be appreciated! aa_biggrin.gif

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  • 4 months later...

I wrote up my own view of the purpose in which the Divines and Daedra came into being and I'm wondering, how well it fits with the lore.

The Princes & Divines Purpose

The Princes and the Divines represent each and every aspect or quality of the mortal humaniod races. Dibella, love, Akatosh the mortal life life span of time, Meyrunes Dagon change ambition destruction paving the way for new creation. Each and every Prince represents a darker side to the qualitys and every divine represent the good in them.

The world is held in perfect balance as by invading and war, the cycle of life, change, death and new creation is kept. It is a important but fragile balance and it must be preserved at all costs. Destruction is as wholely necessary as time and no one Prince Or Divine is more important than the other, for without what they each represent the world would fall into decay.

Wars and invasions that bring about change and death and destroy empires and topple even the most powerful civilisations is as necessary to life as water and food. For if the world was wholely good it would stagnate and die, and if the world was wholely evil it was devour itself. It is hung is balance and the balance preserves all life. It has to be that to live others must die.

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Small problem is only that this view is upside down. How to explain?

Imagine a fractured mind, that splintered into concepts. These concepts crystallized and gained self-awareness, and are the greater and lesser et'ada. (et'ada meaning "original spirit".)

Later the et'ada split - some sacrificed parts of themselves, or their complete self, creating a world outside of their control. Some of them became so weak that they died (the earthbones), turned into today mortals - which are somewhat of watered down et'ada. (More bits of useless info: When they die, their soul go to a place called dreamsleeve [remember, fractured mind], in which memory and personality is stripped from them, then they return to Mundus. Becoming a god, i.e. achieving "CHIM" is to become aware of the overlying fractured mind while keeping your individuality. Those becoming aware of it and not keeping their individuality go "poof", a process known as zero-sum.)

What this means is that there's first the fractured mind, then universal concepts, and lastly the watered down mortals. The concepts are like forces of nature. Only like mythic forces. Putting the mortals as defining force above the concepts can lead to dangerous assumptions. Example given the Aedra of time (Alduin / Akatosh / Alkosh / *insert various other names*): If there's one thing many lore sources have in common, it's that he will succeed where Dagon always fails: Destroying the world when he becomes active again. That his sphere also governs the areas which create the passing of time is just a side effect of this.

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Not sure, my theory was mostly founded by noticing that the divines and daedra mirror qualitys that are part of the mortal races, like us.

Well, it would be more accurate to say the mortals mirror the qualities of the E'tada. (Aedra, Daedra, Divines...etc...) As they came first via the Void (Sithis) and they then after a time created Mundus and then the mortals that live there.

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While Talos is one of the Nine Divines, is he technically one of the aedra or not then...? :cry:

The answer is complex. On the one hand Aedra vs. Daedra depends on if the spirit in question took part in creation (Aedra) or not (Daedra). The individual mortal wasn't present back then, so in theory they would be "neither".

But mortals are watered down et'ada that died while taking part of creation, therefore aedric in nature. So in theory they would be.

Now it gets complicated: Talos ascended by mantling a padomaic entity, that was not aedric (and neither daedric). This again points to "neither". Additionally he achieved CHIM. With other ones who achieved CHIM (which is to say Vivec) aren't countered as Aedra, neither. His place on the wheel was described as being at the center, while the Aedra are the spokes, and the Daedra the voids.

So while he is technically counted as part of the Nine Divine and likely considered as an Aedra by most, I wouldn't count him as Aedra.

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I like your interpretation bg. :eyeroll: It actually does make more sense in the construct of Elder Scrolls Lore to look at Tiber Septim's Apotheosis more like real world deification. Does the person deified actually become a god or is he only believed to be so by the people who deified him?

So to answer that, I suppose you'd have to find instances where Talos interacted with someone in Cyrodiil after his apotheosis to the Divine. Like Pelinal Whitestrake a la the Knights of the Nine. I can't think of any instances I've seen of that yet so I'll have to do some hunting. :idea:

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I like your interpretation bg. :eyeroll:</div>
Many thanks!

It actually does make more sense in the construct of Elder Scrolls Lore to look at Tiber Septim's Apotheosis more like real world deification. Does the person deified actually become a god or is he only believed to be so by the people who deified him?

Tiber Septim achieved godhood in two ways at once*. On the one hand he achieved CHIM, on the other hand he mantled together with Arctus Zurin Shezzarine / Lorkhan. (Mantling: There's no difference between being something and merely acting like it in the Elder Scrolls universe: "Walk like them until they must walk like you."

The same happened in Morrowind. As the wise woman put it: "No, you're not the Nerevarine. But you can become it.")

* = interestingly the only other known case who achieved CHIM also gained godhood through a second mean - Vivec.

So to answer that, I suppose you'd have to find instances where Talos interacted with someone in Cyrodiil after his apotheosis to the Divine.
Morrowind. You can meet him there. Though only on a very specific time - when you're on your way to fight Dagoth Ur, and pay a visit to the Ghostgate.

Though unlike the Daedra Princes the Divines try to keep their appearances at a minimum, and if they appear at all, then mostly only as apparitions to a few, or only a single person (like Tiber Septim / Talos in Morrowind).

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Ahh! I had completely forgotten about that moment in Morrowind! :eyeroll: Thanks for reminding me! Nibani Maesa did indeed have some very interesting things to say about the Neravarine and the gods in general. :idea: I always love speaking to her.

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, here a question or two to run past the lore experts.

First question: What exactly happened in the relationship between Oblivion and Nirn at the banishing of Mehrunes Dagon by Akatosh? I remember reading on some Elder Scrolls lore site that Akatosh had reassembled the barriers between the two realms. How can this be true when Sheogorath opened a permanent portal to his realm on the Niben?

Second question: What exactly happened to Mehrunes Dagon? Like I ellude to above, I'm under the impression that he was banished back to oblivion, similar to how his daedric minions can be banished.

Third and last question: When the player is in Oblivion, while a gate is open, he/she can remain in Oblivion. However, once a sigil stone has been seized, they are transported back to the realm of Nirn. In this way, it seems that a player-in-oblivion equivalent to a daedra-in-Nirn. However, we also know that people like Mankar Camoran and his associates, as well as the population of the Shivering Isles, seem to be able to reside there without a gate to Nirn remaining open? Also, I haven't seen any lore evidence that the inhabitants of Nirn can be summoned by Daedra in Oblivion. If the people of Nirn can remain in Oblivion without a gate binding them, can Daedra do the same on Nirn? Could there be Daedra that were left behind on Nirn when Akatosh closed the gates--possibly forever trapped? If that is true, then why were all the Daedra in the Imperial City--as well as others who had come through gates elsewhere--banished along with Mehrunes Dagon?

Phew. If you have any questions for me and my own questions, please ask. I know this is a lot but I would be happy for some bit of explanation. Thanks.

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Whew! Okay! Let me have a crack at these! ;)

1: Sheogorath is able to open a gate to Nirn and keep it open because he is not sending anything through it. It's just a doorway TO his realm. At least that's the explanation I once received. If bg2408 pops in tonight I'm sure he can add more to that. In the meantime, I'll go searching and see what I find. LD

2: Dagon was indeed banished back to Oblivion by Akatosh. So he's back in his realm, sealed away permanently by the Dragon god.

3: Yes, there are Deadra trapped on Nirn now. Any that were on the Nirn side of a gate when Dagon was banished are stuck there. As for the deadra in the Imperial City, we're to assume the Legion soldiers dealth with them while we were in the Temple watching the big show down. :P

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3: Yes, there are Deadra trapped on Nirn now. Any that were on the Nirn side of a gate when Dagon was banished are stuck there. As for the deadra in the Imperial City, we're to assume the Legion soldiers dealth with them while we were in the Temple watching the big show down.

This is exactly what I was hoping for, oddly enough. Ties in nicely with some of my ideas. I love it when lore and I cross paths. :rofl:

1: Sheogorath is able to open a gate to Nirn and keep it open because he is not sending anything through it. It's just a doorway TO his realm. At least that's the explanation I once received. If bg2408 pops in tonight I'm sure he can add more to that. In the meantime, I'll go searching and see what I find. LD

This is still a bit confusing. I understand the part about daedra not being able/allowed/commanded to pass through it: this has the ring of demons not being able to enter someone's home unless invited in. This keeps with the entire conjuration school of magic.

But it still seems to have loopholes-how did the plants from Sheogorath's realm get through---are the plants classified as daedra? If not, what is their exact nature? Also, the player can go back and forth through the gate, so its not just a gate to his realm, but from it as well. I suspect that though this may be true, Sheogorath isn't breaking any of "Akatosh's rules" by creating this portal. And these hypothetical rules must have some truth to them: daedra could still be summoned both before and after the Oblivion crisis. But, obviously, this had to be done by the people of Nirn or by daedra already on Nirn.

However, here is a possible wrench in the works: What about Meridia's Aurorans showing up in Cyrodiil without an apparant summoner? Did Umaril escape Oblivion by taking advantage of the Oblivion Crisis, when the barriers between Oblivion and Nirn were down? Or was it simply the fact that he was originally from Nirn that allowed him to bypass Akatosh's defenses? We know that Akatosh's barriers don't stop the natives of Nirn from traversing Oblivion as they please. But this second explanation doesn't explain why he chose this moment to return (other than, perhaps, to take advantage of the recent turmoil). Also, in the game it is mentioned that he has a daedric nature...which may be even a larger finger pointing at the idea of him escaping during the Oblivion crisis.

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