Daedra

[Fiore1300]

Okay, I figured I'd start up a discussion on the nature of daedra, with the intent on finding out what makes a daedroth a daedroth (using proper singular form here, not referring to the Daedroth).

Now, here are my more specific questions:

Can the daedric princes create mortal creatures? If so, does that mean they have taken part in creation?

Can lesser daedra take any form they desire? Why do certain sexes seem to have preference among different types of daedra?

Which of the beings, mentioned below, are actually daedra, and which are not? What does it take to be a daedra? To become a daedra?

Confirmed Daedra?

Winged Twilight--servant of Azura, feminine/animalistic.

Hunger--servant of ? (Sheogorath[DD], Boethia[sI]), animalistic.

Scamp--servant of Mehrunes Dagon, animalistic.

Clannfear--servant of Mehrunes Dagon, animalistic.

Dremora--servant of Mehrunes Dagon, masculine/feminine.

Spider Daedra--servant of Mephala, masculine/feminie/animalistic.

Auroran--servant of Meridia, ?.

Daedroth--servant of Molag Bal, masculine/animalistic.

Golden Saint--servant of Sheogorath, feminine

Dark Seducer--servant of Sheogorath, feminine

Minion of Order--servant of Jyggalag, masculine?

Daedric Lord (dremora?)

Daedric Count(dremora?)

Seducer

Xivilai (dremora?)

Atronach

Herne---associated with Mehrunes Dagon/Hircine

Morphoid---associated with Mehrunes Dagon/Hircine

Vermai--

Guardian--servant of Clavicus Vile?

Not Daedra:

Unconfirmed daedric relationship/nature

Ogrim--Malacath's servant

Ogre--Malacath's creation?

Orc--Malacath's followers?

Lycanthropes--mortal 'creation' of Hircine, masculine/feminine.

Vampires--creation of Molag Bal?

spiders, insects, slugs--associated with Namira?

Baliwog--indigenous to Shivering Isles

Elytra--indigenous to Shivering Isles

Gnarl--creation of Sheogorath?

Grummite--creation of Sheogorath?

Scalon--indigenous to Shivering Isles.

Umaril the Unfeathered--Of mortal origins, of daedric nature.

Sheogorath's Champion--Assuming the throne of madness.

The Camorans--Of daedric nature.

And every and any plant encountered in the realms of Oblivion: Alocasia, Aster Bloom, Blister Pod, Bloodgrass, Flame Stalk, Fungus Stalk, Greenmote, Harrada Root, Hydnum Azure, Letifer Orca Planta, Mushroom Tree Saplings, Putrid Gigantea, Red Kelp, Rot Scale, Screaming Maw, Spiddal Plant, Swamp Tentacles, Thornhook, Watcher's Eye, Water Root Pod, Wisp Core, Withering Moon, and Worm's Head.

Any help, like always, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Mannimagnus]

I can confirm the unconfirmed list.

Lycanthropes:Are merely Hircine expanding his grasp of power over the mortal domain, not Daedroths, but a group of mortals under a Daedric curse.

Vampires:The same as Hircine, a Daedric prince merely trying to expand his power, not Daedroths but a group of mortals under a Daedric curse.

Spider, insects and slugs:Not Daedroths, as they are merely examples of what she governs, which is dirt and filth, so they are not Daedroths merely examples of what she governs.

Baliwog:Daedric indeed, Sheogorath, being Jyggalag, makes them indeed Daedric.

Elytra:Same as Baliwogs.

Gnarl:Same again.

Grummites:Definately Daedric, they are in fact of Jyggalags creation I believe.

Scalon:Same as Baliwog, Elytra and Gnarl.

Umaril:Nope, Ayleid, not Daedric.

Sheogorath's Champion:Nope, not Daedric, a mortal Daedric lord, but not a Daedric.

The Camorans:Nope, not Daedric, opposite of the Vampires and Lycanthropes, they are blessed rather than cursed, and not Daedric.

All the plants are Daedric.

[StarX]

Vampires:The same as Hircine, a Daedric prince merely trying to expand his power, not Daedroths but a groupf of mortals under a Daedric curse.

Yup, both Daedroths and vampires (the story of Lamae Bal) are supposed to be creatures of Molag Bal. I even left a reference for that in StarX Vanilla Vampires Revised. It was one the first times I really got interrested in TES lore.

[Fiore1300]

Thanks guys!

I'll make sure to check over everything though, for the thrill of a possible contradiction.

Just one thing right now, for clarification:

Umaril:Nope, Ayleid, not Daedric.

Isn't Umaril's condition more along the lines of the Camorans, being blessed with Daedric nature?

[WhoGuru]

I can confirm the unconfirmed list.

Lycanthropes:Are merely Hircine expanding his grasp of power over the mortal domain, not Daedroths, but a group of mortals under a Daedric curse.

Vampires:The same as Hircine, a Daedric prince merely trying to expand his power, not Daedroths but a group of mortals under a Daedric curse.

Spider, insects and slugs:Not Daedroths, as they are merely examples of what she governs, which is dirt and filth, so they are not Daedroths merely examples of what she governs.

Baliwog:Daedric indeed, Sheogorath, being Jyggalag, makes them indeed Daedric.

Elytra:Same as Baliwogs.

Gnarl:Same again.

Grummites:Definately Daedric, they are in fact of Jyggalags creation I believe.

Scalon:Same as Baliwog, Elytra and Gnarl.

Umaril:Nope, Ayleid, not Daedric.

Sheogorath's Champion:Nope, not Daedric, a mortal Daedric lord, but not a Daedric.

The Camorans:Nope, not Daedric, opposite of the Vampires and Lycanthropes, they are blessed rather than cursed, and not Daedric.

All the plants are Daedric.

Manni, while I appreciate you jumping in, I want to see documentation for the claims you've made above. Links to material from the Imperial Library please and not the UESP as that source is primarily written by players and contains vast amounts of supposition and in some cases, plain wrong information. Back this up please and thank you.

Edit: Now to add.

Malacath IS a Daedra, I saw you declare in the Shoutbox earlier that he most certainly wasn't.: http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index.shtml#malacath

[DarkRider]

According to the Imperial Library a Baliwog is just a creature in the Shivering Isles and not considered a Daedra simply because they live there. The same goes for all SI creatures http://www.imperial-library.info/bestiaries/bestiaryshiveringisles.shtml

Better double check your facts in the Library as Guru suggest Manni.

[Fiore1300]

But then, if the Baliwog/Elytra/etc are not daedra, how can the following quote be true?

The thing to keep in mind with the Daedric Princes is that you're only dealing with the avatar of them. The real prince is their realm and their sphere. When you enter the gate at Kvatch and walk through the hellish landscape' date=' then this is Mehrunes Dagon. Well, a little part of him, either way.[/quote']

Wouldn't bg's interpretation mean that the realm itself, it's wildlife, plants, geography, weather, are part of the daedric prince him/herself? I understand that plenty of non-daedra live there (i.e. people) but they are originally from Mundus, not Oblivion.

And doesn't the fact that daedric princes can "create" mortals blow in the face of the whole "daedra played no part in creation" idea? Because, obviously, they have.

[greenwarden]

Some things can be spiritually "true" even if they're not factual- that is the chief strength of good fiction, which is, after all is said and done, what Elder Scrolls lore is. I consider the spirit of the words, and don't take them so literally.

When someone who knows me well stumbles across something (a shirt, a book, etc ) that seems very simpatico with my personality, they will often say "Oh that's so you". Am I that actually that thing? No. Can something be a part of a person yet not of their physical substance? Yes. We can look at any number of creation myths and see that while deities are often credited for the creation of various creatures and places, the creatures and places are not deities themselves, unless one subscribes to animism. We are dealing with a heavily dualistic fictional world where the physical and the meta-physical are equal "realities". Things can be true and untrue at the same time in Tamriel, this world too, for that matter. *shrug*

Baliwog:Daedric indeed, Sheogorath, being Jyggalag, makes them indeed Daedric.

"A daedra created them therefore they are daedra/daedric" makes no more sense than "a shoemaker created them therefore they are shoes". Sorry, Manni, I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that. But I will say this- if that is true, then how would it be any less so for Malacath? Transformed/created by Boethiah, when the Prince ate Trinimac.

That's just my perspective on the matter.

[Mannimagnus]

Yup, both Daedroths and vampires (the story of Lamae Bal) are supposed to be creatures of Molag Bal. I even left a reference for that in StarX Vanilla Vampires Revised. It was one the first times I really got interrested in TES lore.

Well, this is the evidence that Vampires are in fact not Daedric but mortals under a curse.

Thanks guys!

I'll make sure to check over everything though, for the thrill of a possible contradiction.

Just one thing right now, for clarification:

Isn't Umaril's condition more along the lines of the Camorans, being blessed with Daedric nature?

Yes in fact, he is blessed with immortality from Meridia, therefore he is Ayleid, not Daedric, the same as a mortal who is cursed, the only difference is he is blessed like the Camorans.

Manni, while I appreciate you jumping in, I want to see documentation for the claims you've made above. Links to material from the Imperial Library please and not the UESP as that source is primarily written by players and contains vast amounts of supposition and in some cases, plain wrong information. Back this up please and thank you.

Edit: Now to add.

Malacath IS a Daedra, I saw you declare in the Shoutbox earlier that he most certainly wasn't.: http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index.shtml#malacath

I did not get that information from anywhere, it is from my own belief, Hircine's lycanthropes are merely mortals under a Daedric curse, he did not create the mortals with the curse already in place, he cursed already existing mortals, therefore they are not Daedric, also the others are from my general knowledge of Daedra, it is common sense that Sheogorath's champion is not Daedric, as you are the champion, unless your a Dremora then your not Daedric lol, also I know my Shivering Isles creatures, also Yes, Malacath is a Daedra, but not a TRUE Daedric Prince, and actually not a Daedra but Daedric [to DO with Daedra], that is what I believe, he is Daedric, but not a Daedra, and is the lord of Orcs, Ogrims and Ogres, who are not Daedra at all, just mortal followers of a Daedric, nothing can disprove what I say or prove what I say, it is simply what I believe.

According to the Imperial Library a Baliwog is just a creature in the Shivering Isles and not considered a Daedra simply because they live there. The same goes for all SI creatures http://www.imperial-library.info/bestiaries/bestiaryshiveringisles.shtml

Better double check your facts in the Library as Guru suggest Manni.

Yes, but the Baliwog is said to be the larva of Grummites, Grummites being the creation of Jyggalag, being that they are said to be the original inhabitants of the Shivering Isles, and the Shivering Isles originally belonging to Jyggalag, add 1+1 and 2+2, the Grummites are the Daedric creation of Jyggalag, and if the Baliwog are the larva of Grummites, then they are also, of course I cant confirm this, no one can [unless your Todd Howard].

But then, if the Baliwog/Elytra/etc are not daedra, how can the following quote be true?

Wouldn't bg's interpretation mean that the realm itself, it's wildlife, plants, geography, weather, are part of the daedric prince him/herself? I understand that plenty of non-daedra live there (i.e. people) but they are originally from Mundus, not Oblivion.

And doesn't the fact that daedric princes can "create" mortals blow in the face of the whole "daedra played no part in creation" idea? Because, obviously, they have.

They are Daedra I believe, there are no accounts proving that they are NOT Daedra, so that will always remain open for debate.

Some things can be spiritually "true" even if they're not factual- that is the chief strength of good fiction, which is, after all is said and done, what Elder Scrolls lore is. I consider the spirit of the words, and don't take them so literally.

When someone who knows me well stumbles across something (a shirt, a book, etc ) that seems very simpatico with my personality, they will often say "Oh that's so you". Am I that actually that thing? No. Can something be a part of a person yet not of their physical substance? Yes. We can look at any number of creation myths and see that while deities are often credited for the creation of various creatures and places, the creatures and places are not deities themselves, unless one subscribes to animism. We are dealing with a heavily dualistic fictional world where the physical and the meta-physical are equal "realities". Things can be true and untrue at the same time in Tamriel, this world too, for that matter. *shrug*

"A daedra created them therefore they are daedra/daedric" makes no more sense than "a shoemaker created them therefore they are shoes". Sorry, Manni, I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that. But I will say this- if that is true, then how would it be any less so for Malacath? Transformed/created by Boethiah, when the Prince ate Trinimac.

That's just my perspective on the matter.

Like I said above to Whoguru, Daedric, but not a Daedra.

[bg2408]

What is a daedra compared to a mortal?

The short lore answer is, that lesser daedroths are one subgradient higher than mortals.

In addition they have certain advantages, which are connected to being a subgradient higher (like e.g. immortality - which "mortals" gain if they advance in subgradient, read CHIM or other forms of apotheosis).

Now what is a subgradient? It's a level of existence.

In a way the Elder Scrolls world is like a pyramid. At the top you've got the godhead, who fractured and created the aurbis. Which split into Anu and Padomay. Which split into greater and lesser concepts aligned to these overlying directions (these are the et'ada, original spirits). Some of the et'ada sacrificed parts of themselves to create a world, while other did not. This divided the et'ada into Aedra and Daedra.

Now mortals are a subgradient of the et'ada, the Aedra to be exact.

Thing is, the line between mortals and Daedra are thin. "Walk like them until they must walk like you", also known as mantling. Likewise they are other ways to get to a higher subgradient (CHIM, apotheosis, among other). Examples would include (but are not limited to) Vivec (CHIM after false apotheosis), Tiber Septim (mantling, CHIM), CoC (mantling, apotheosis).

Now that's the metaphysical side of it.

The practical side is far easier: If it procreates with other members of it's own kind, the species in question isn't daedric. Likewise if it souls go to the dreamsleeve (the dreamsleeve is the "soul recycle bin" for souls aligned to Nirn as their aligned AE) or to another aligned AE, it isn't daedric.

Baliwogs and Gnarls and Grummites and Scalons procreate, therefore they are not daedric. A vampire's soul, when slain, will go to the Dreamsleeve and not the waters of Oblivion, therefore a Vampire is not daedric. An Ogrim's soul will be banished into the waters of Oblivion and not go to the dreamsleeve or an aligned AE, therefore it is daedric. Umaril's soul went to it's aligned AE and not the waters of Oblivion, therefore he wasn't daedric. Similar to the tortured Mythic Dawn members you meet in Camoran's paradise: They also went, when killed, to their aligned AE, which was Paradise. Bad luck.

There isn't something like being "part daedra", it's a state of being, not a question of genetics.

Hope anyone is able to understand this .

[DarkRider]

I understood and enjoyed it immensely, thanks for sharing!

[Mannimagnus]

What is a daedra compared to a mortal?

The short lore answer is, that lesser daedroths are one subgradient higher than mortals.

In addition they have certain advantages, which are connected to being a subgradient higher (like e.g. immortality - which "mortals" gain if they advance in subgradient, read CHIM or other forms of apotheosis).

Now what is a subgradient? It's a level of existence.

In a way the Elder Scrolls world is like a pyramid. At the top you've got the godhead, who fractured and created the aurbis. Which split into Anu and Padomay. Which split into greater and lesser concepts aligned to these overlying directions (these are the et'ada, original spirits). Some of the et'ada sacrificed parts of themselves to create a world, while other did not. This divided the et'ada into Aedra and Daedra.

Now mortals are a subgradient of the et'ada, the Aedra to be exact.

Thing is, the line between mortals and Daedra are thin. "Walk like them until they must walk like you", also known as mantling. Likewise they are other ways to get to a higher subgradient (CHIM, apotheosis, among other). Examples would include (but are not limited to) Vivec (CHIM after false apotheosis), Tiber Septim (mantling, CHIM), CoC (mantling, apotheosis).

Now that's the metaphysical side of it.

The practical side is far easier: If it procreates with other members of it's own kind, the species in question isn't daedric. Likewise if it souls go to the dreamsleeve (the dreamsleeve is the "soul recycle bin" for souls aligned to Nirn as their aligned AE) or to another aligned AE, it isn't daedric.

Baliwogs and Gnarls and Grummites and Scalons procreate, therefore they are not daedric. A vampire's soul, when slain, will go to the Dreamsleeve and not the waters of Oblivion, therefore a Vampire is not daedric. An Ogrim's soul will be banished into the waters of Oblivion and not go to the dreamsleeve or an aligned AE, therefore it is daedric. Umaril's soul went to it's aligned AE and not the waters of Oblivion, therefore he wasn't daedric. Similar to the tortured Mythic Dawn members you meet in Camoran's paradise: They also went, when killed, to their aligned AE, which was Paradise. Bad luck.

There isn't something like being "part daedra", it's a state of being, not a question of genetics.

Hope anyone is able to understand this .

Ah yes, but there has never been an account about where an Ogrim goes when it dies, we dont know exactly where it goes when it dies, so we cannot tell still if it is a Daedra or not, yes there is no such thing as part Daedra, but there is to do with Daedra [Daedric] e. g., a Ebony sword has nothing to do with Daedra, and is not a Daedra [obviously] but once its ebony is transformed into a Daedra weapon, it is Daedric, not Daedra, Daedric because it has to do with Daedra.

[bg2408]

Ah yes, but there has never been an account about where an Ogrim goes when it dies, we dont know exactly where it goes when it dies, so we cannot tell still if it is a Daedra or not, yes there is no such thing as part Daedra, but there is to do with Daedra [Daedric] e. g., a Ebony sword has nothing to do with Daedra, and is not a Daedra [obviously] but once its ebony is transformed into a Daedra weapon, it is Daedric, not Daedra, Daedric because it has to do with Daedra.

Ever heard of the wonderful invention called "dot"? The whole quote above is just one sentence...

1. We know where Daedra go when they die on several accounts.

2. We know that Ogrim are Daedra, that's also been told on several accounts and can actually be tested in game.

3. Therefore we know where Ogrim go when they die.

1. On the one hand you could say that "daedric" in case of equipment refers to it being forged by daedra.

2. On the other hand daedric equipment has the soul of a lesser daedric being forged into it, which isn't too comfortable for the soul in question. Therefore, btw, daedric equipment used to drive the wearer insane in older Elder Scrolls titles.

[Fiore1300]

I'm still confused as to what Baliwogs/Grummites/Elytra/etc are?

If they aren't daedra, because they reproduce, what the hell are they?

The Daedric princes have played no part in creation, so doesn't that mean that they are not part of creation?

What do you call an animal that is native to Oblivion?

Also, what about the plants? I haven't heard from anyone but Mannimagus concerning their nature. Are they daedra? Or not? If they aren't, what are they?

[Mannimagnus]

Ever heard of the wonderful invention called "dot"? The whole quote above is just one sentence...

1. We know where Daedra go when they die on several accounts.

2. We know that Ogrim are Daedra, that's also been told on several accounts and can actually be tested in game.

3. Therefore we know where Ogrim go when they die.

1. On the one hand you could say that "daedric" in case of equipment refers to it being forged by daedra.

2. On the other hand daedric equipment has the soul of a lesser daedric being forged into it, which isn't too comfortable for the soul in question. Therefore, btw, daedric equipment used to drive the wearer insane in older Elder Scrolls titles.

Lol, well I always end any comment with a ., never before.

Although now it is completely appropriate, anyway, yes then you are correct about the Ogrim, but the Ogrim may be a mortal with Daedric abilities, we dont know yet, considering Malacath is a Daedric lord, he may have the ability to pass Daedric abilities onto his servants, also Malacath is a Daedric lord not a Daedra lord, I just used a weapon for an example, another example of Daedric would be a mortal, if they do deeds for a Daedra lord, and are proclaimed the champion of that lord, then they would be a Daedric Champion, not a Daedra, but to do with Daedra in the way of dealings ect., the same is for Malacath, he is an Aedra's remains to do with Daedra, so while you would refer to Azura as a Daedra

lord, it would only be correct to label Malacath as a Daedric lord, there is a difference, and so the Ogrim would be Daedric servants with Daedric abilities while not being Daedra.

I'm still confused as to what Baliwogs/Grummites/Elytra/etc are?

If they aren't daedra, because they reproduce, what the hell are they?

The Daedric princes have played no part in creation, so doesn't that mean that they are not part of creation?

What do you call an animal that is native to Oblivion?

Also, what about the plants? I haven't heard from anyone but Mannimagus concerning their nature. Are they daedra? Or not? If they aren't, what are they?

Baliwogs/Grummites/Elytra would be Daedric I believe, simply not being Daedra, does not mean they are not Daedric, so they could be mortal creatures transformed by Sheogorath in Daedric servants.

As for the plants, they are the plants native to the isles, if the isles themselves are Daedric, then the plants that grow from the isles are too, only way to explain their nature I think.

[bg2408]

I'm still confused as to what Baliwogs/Grummites/Elytra/etc are?

Mortal animals / plants.

The Daedric princes have played no part in creation, so doesn't that mean that they are not part of creation?

They didn't sacrificed parts of themselves during creation.

What do you call an animal that is native to Oblivion?

An animal.

Also, what about the plants? I haven't heard from anyone but Mannimagus concerning their nature. Are they daedra? Or not? If they aren't, what are they?

Plants are... difficult. It seems to be that they channel magicka flows, which means that they bring parts of their native sphere with them. And this native sphere can be a daedric realm, which means they're able to spread the realm further.

Lol, well I always end any comment with a ., never before.

Makes it hard to read.

Although now it is completely appropriate, anyway, yes then you are correct about the Ogrim, but the Ogrim may be a mortal with Daedric abilities,

There is no mortal with daedric abilities.

"Walk like them until they must walk like you."

If it walks like a Daedroth, looks like a daedroth, has the spirit of a daedroth, then it is a daedroth.

we dont know yet, considering Malacath is a Daedric lord,

Malacath is the Daedric Prince of the Sworn Oath, the Bloody Curse, and the Spurned and Ostracized.

He fills one of the voids of the spokes. He is a Daedric Prince, even though he (like Meridia and Sheogorath) came into being later. Trying to turn him into a "Daedric Lord" is just a play with wrong semantics.

would be a mortal, if they do deeds for a Daedra lord, and are proclaimed the champion of that lord, then they would be a Daedric Champion

Then they would be a daedra's champion.

All else is again useless semantics. It's like saying that saints are figureheads of the Divines, therefore due to Golden Saints serving Sheogorath he had to be an Aedra. No. These are just words which carry little meaning if you twist them enough. Important is what they stand for in lore, not if you can find an inappropiate use for them (as above, correct term would be "daedra's champion", but they could also call him cangaroo's finest for the lulz. In this case the term holds no innate meaning).

Breaking it down to the lowest common denominator: If something is mortal or an (et')ada depends on the subgradient.

If something achieves a lower subgradient it depends on how it was achieved as to how it has to be classified. Example given mantling an Aedroth results in an Aedroth, mantling a Daedroth results in a Daedroth.

[Mannimagnus]

No no no, not a Daedra champion, Daedra means the thing you are refering to is a Daedra, Daedric is to do with Daedra, Malacath is a Daedric lord, not a Daedra lord, meaning he lords over Daedra but is not a Daedra himself, by ruling over Daedra and being created by a Daedra he is Daedric, very simple, yes he has his own sphere ect., but it does not make him a Daedra, the same is for the player when they

become Sheogorath

, they are not a Daedra Prince, but a Daedric Prince, there is no "wrong semantics", also the saints part is not the same, the saints are not the figureheads of the Divines, and the Golden Saints are Daedra, so Sheogorath would not have to be an Aedra, the correct term is Daedric champion.

[bg2408]

Daedric Prince = Daedra Lord = Daedra Prince = Prince = voids in the wheel.

Daedra is the summary term for all true immortal et'ada, while Aedra is the summary term for all mortal et'ada.

[Mannimagnus]

There is a difference Bg, lets not get this thread into a debate.

[bg2408]

There is a difference Bg, lets not get this thread into a debate.

Then demonstrate the difference lore wise. Go ahead. Show where in lore this difference is stated, explained, whatever.

Go on. I await some Imperial Library links .

Otherwise I just file this under "semantics gone wrong" .

[Mannimagnus]

Read the top section of This page, I find it very reliable, no more reliable than the Imperial Library which does not say the same.

[bg2408]

Read the top section of This page, I find it very reliable, no more reliable than the Imperial Library which does not say the same.

Just two quotes:

Daedric Princes (sometimes referred to as "Daedra Lords")

In all, there are 16 powerful Princes named in The Book of Daedra.

These are Azura, Boethiah, Clavicus Vile, Hermaeus Mora, Hircine, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Mephala, Meridia, Molag Bal, Namira, Nocturnal, Peryite, Sanguine, Sheogorath, and Vaermina.

Even uesp gets this right - and when it comes to some knowledge more advanced than the base hitpoints of a creature, uesp is often no reliable source (as can be seen in the very article linked, albeit at other places). There's nothing there giving any justification in splitting up the princes (and their daedric servitors) into different categories, nor any hint that an Ogrim could be anything else than a Lesser Daedroth.

[Mannimagnus]

Did you miss this part?

Daedra come in many forms. Undoubtedly there are true Daedra, such as the Daedra Princes and highly intelligent Dremora. There are many lesser beings known to be in league with these greater powers, and it is unsaid in the game whether these constitute actual Daedra or if they are simply Daedric (having to do with the Daedra).

[bg2408]

uesp is often no reliable source (as can be seen in the very article linked, albeit at other places).

If it can't be justified by anything you can find on the Imperial Library, then it's "uesp speculation". (If at all. There are some blatant errors on uesp that I can't really explain, because they're so obvious. Just take a look at the magic effects, many of them are just plain and totally wrong.)

And, as mentioned and tried to explain several times, this part doesn't make any sense. It's like someone trying to force D&D semantics onto Elder Scrolls terms, which doesn't work simply because the underlying mechanics are completely different. As soon as you've got a world in which mantling is in existence, it totally falls together.

And mantling is one of the core metaphysical concepts of elder scrolls lore.

[Mannimagnus]

The Imperial Library does not know everything either.