Fish Tank Woes

[syscrusher]

I'm trying to use the fish tank from Korana's wonderful Shadowcrest Vineyard as a clutter item in my mod (she gave me permission to use her objects). I have created an Activator object with her NIF, and I looked at my object and hers in CS to ensure that all the parameters are the same. (In fact, I can replicate this problem by *literally* using another instance/ref of her object.)

The tank is clear from the -X and -Y directions in both CS and game mode, but shows a pure-white reflection from +X and +Y directions. I've moved it all over my cell, and I've varied the cell lighting parameters all over the place, including the "directional" ones. I made my cell's edit settings identical to her cell's settings.

In fact, I can replicate this problem with my cell's ambient light set to *zero* and no light sources present. That is, the cell rendering is entirely inky black except for the brilliant white glow of the tank Activator, which is not supposed to be a light source in the first place. If move around to the -X, -Y angle, the tank becomes black like everything else.

Finally, I tried (and carefully exited the CS without saving) changing the tank location in *her* cell so that I could see it from all sides. Guess what? The tank reflects white from the +X, +Y, and +Z sides but is clear from the negative axis sides.

To see if there was something directional about the tank object itself, I've rotated it, and have determined that its rotation doesn't matter. The problem is related to directionality of the cell, not the object.

I know there are parameters that control how reflective surfaces behave, but how is this surface reflecting when there is no light present? It's as if the game engine shines a brilliant white light from (X, Y, Z) == (+infinity, +infinity, +infinity) no matter what your cell lighting is set to.

Is this something I could fix in Blender's material and texture properties, to make the glass parts clear but non-reflective, or minimally reflective? Has someone else made a fish tank that works from all sides?

Thanks for any advice. I'm sure someone has invented this wheel, but I've spent two hours searching the Net without success.

Kind regards,

Syscrusher

Edited April 20, 2011 by syscrusher

[syscrusher]

Update: I am still puzzled why *this* mesh doesn't work, but the good news is that I found one by someone else that works perfectly, from all angles. The mod is called "Fishtanks", by Phitt, available here: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13542.

I'd still like to know what's going on with Korana's model, because I'd like to contribute a fix back to her if possible, but at least we now know that it's the mesh and not my cell nor my video card nor an inherent game engine limitation.

Syscrusher

[DarkRider]

Hmm does your issue look like post #2 in this thread?

[syscrusher]

@DarkRider: Interesting thread, but no, it doesn't look like that. I *have* seen that behavior elsewhere, though. I traced it down to a rendering decision about distant objects in interior cells. I can replicate it, for example, in extremely long, straight dungeon corridors -- in my new mod, one such situation I solved by adding a slight fog effect so the player can't see the missing geometry in the distance. As it turns out, the fog actually improved the overall look of the level, so I'd keep it even without the need to cover up one of Bethesda's glitches. :-)

The faces on the fish tank *are* rendering; they are just rendering as a 100% reflection of a [255,255,255] white light source that doesn't actually exist.

I have a working theory on this, that I'm going to check out next time I'm booted into Windows for modding. I think maybe Korana accidentally put a glow source into her Blender or 3DS model and it is embedded in the NIF. IOW, I think maybe her NIF combines a fishtank with something equivalent to those "phantom light bulb" Bethesda lights, but without any visible representation of the light source itself.

I'm really glad to have found another resource, but since Korana's resources are so good otherwise, I'd really love to be able to solve this one and offer a diagnosis and/or patch for her, as a thanks for all the other things she's contributed to the community.

[donnato]

Syscrusher, this intrigued me and seemed to ring some lind of bell in my head. In blender >Shading(F5)> Mirror Trans > Ray Transp. In this box you`ll see a number of sliders towards the top like, IDR,Fresnel.Fac(which I take to be the factoring setting. On mouse over blender gives a description and there seems to be a possibility that these settings, or others in that box may help. I don`t know though since I didn`t export to game.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

[Artisanix]

err, it was quite a long ago, so I don't remember clearly whether that was my idea or she got this from some other place/person... well the fishtanks in Korana's mod are slightly different from those made by Phitt - water object in nif file there has a special name for its material set - "lava". This allows to control the look of the water in tanks not by "normal" textures on HDD but by water settings in CS. For these fishtanks to work properly you need to enable water for that cell they are placed in and chose one of the water types from the list which looks good for you or create new water type and assign it for that property of the cell... and if your cell has no water set then the object looks just like a hyper reflective neon ;]

well, couple of more objects like that were made for the mod as well (bathtub, wash bowl, etc.)

[syscrusher]

err, it was quite a long ago, so I don't remember clearly whether that was my idea or she got this from some other place/person... well the fishtanks in Korana's mod are slightly different from those made by Phitt - water object in nif file there has a special name for its material set - "lava". This allows to control the look of the water in tanks not by "normal" textures on HDD but by water settings in CS. For these fishtanks to work properly you need to enable water for that cell they are placed in and chose one of the water types from the list which looks good for you or create new water type and assign it for that property of the cell... and if your cell has no water set then the object looks just like a hyper reflective neon ;]

well, couple of more objects like that were made for the mod as well (bathtub, wash bowl, etc.)

[WillieSea]

Have you used a clean save game for your last test?

[syscrusher]

Have you used a clean save game for your last test?

[syscrusher]

Syscrusher, this intrigued me and seemed to ring some lind of bell in my head. In blender >Shading(F5)> Mirror Trans > Ray Transp. In this box you`ll see a number of sliders towards the top like, IDR,Fresnel.Fac(which I take to be the factoring setting. On mouse over blender gives a description and there seems to be a possibility that these settings, or others in that box may help. I don`t know though since I didn`t export to game.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

[DarkRider]

Sort of. I used a test from before the object was added into the game, for each test run. Do I need to go back further than that?

If the cell was ever loaded in that save without water, with or without the tank, the water may not be enabled in that cell as you believe.

[WillieSea]

I always keep a save game handy, straight out of the beginning sewers right next to my Levelers Shack mod. I can then set my character to any level and head for my mods testing grounds from there. It ensures a clean save.

Any data stored in the save game is always loaded last. If the cell you have the fish tank in was loaded at any time in the past, the new 'existance' of water would be overridden by the save game saying there is none.

[syscrusher]

Any data stored in the save game is always loaded last. If the cell you have the fish tank in was loaded at any time in the past, the new 'existance' of water would be overridden by the save game saying there is none.

[syscrusher]

@DR and @WS: Your hypothesis is confirmed. I went into the cell with a character who had never been to that cell before, with both Korana's and Phitt's objects in game. Both work correctly. With the character that had previously been there, Phitt's still works but Korana's does not.

I'd say this is a design limitation of Korana's object, the price she pays for the flexibility of letting the cell editor control the water type. But it's working as designed, not a bug. I'm going to use Phitt's object because I don't need the flexibility and am more interested in an object that is a constant behavior. But Korana's doesn't have a bug, just a design quirk.

Thanks again for the info -- I've learned a lot here. :-)

[Artisanix]

Actually there's no that much of difference between Phitt's and Korana's fishtanks in the game for the player. Only testing requires clean save because of water's behavior. But notice that every player after download of your mod will be visiting that cell for the first time. Well, Korana's mod has thousands of downloads so far, and many comments - I browsed through some of them in the past but haven't seen any complains about the fishtanks at all :]

[syscrusher]

Actually there's no that much of difference between Phitt's and Korana's fishtanks in the game for the player. Only testing requires clean save because of water's behavior. But notice that every player after download of your mod will be visiting that cell for the first time. Well, Korana's mod has thousands of downloads so far, and many comments - I browsed through some of them in the past but haven't seen any complains about the fishtanks at all :]

I wasn't knocking her mod -- I have it loaded in my own game because I really love her work. :-) I just chose Phitt's fishtank mainly because it makes my testing a little easier, and also because he provided more choices of fish than she did. Hers with the configurable water is more flexible, but that wasn't a needed feature for my intended use of the item, so I opted for the simpler model.

[Artisanix]

In fact that's most about one specific feature it offers. Fishtanks with lava material property for water are animated because they have waves which can be controlled via settings in CS. Of course for small fishtanks this makes little difference as usually these are supposed to be filled with still water, so greater waves are rather unrealistic there. But if you want to have bigger fishtank it's a nice feature to have a possibility to animate the surface of the water in easy and configurable way.

And don't misunderstand me - I'm not arguing which concept is better or else, I only try to explain things... ;]

[syscrusher]

> I only try to explain things.

Understood. I didn't take your post as antagonistic in any way -- rather, I was just concerned that *mine* might have sounded that way, when I had not intended it so. :-) I have great respect for Korana's contributions, and have just about all her mods loaded in my game. If there was even the remotest possibility my post sounded critical of her work, I needed to correct that.