DarkRider

CS Basics: Lesson #3

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Very good homework Darth full marks, and already your skills are growing it shows. Well done, you may move ahead to Lesson #4. :thumbup:

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:lol: That giant candle is funny.

Here are my chapter 3 pics so far:

The Basics

The Extra Credit

I don't have the basement done yet, but is it alright to come back to it after chapter 4? I accidently started that one, thinking that it was chapter 3 :bagged:

Also, a few suggestions:

* I found out that fences, carpets and other objects may need to "fall" (using the F key) several times in order to be at the right height.

*The autosave seems to work fine, so you might want to suggest that your students use that as well as saving often

*It looks like there's an option so that external cells won't automatically load in the preferences. The wiki didn't have much info on this option, unfortunately, so I don't know if it actually works

*You can set your Snap to Grid and Snap to Angle preferences to work relative to any reference in the cell. This is very handy for getting those pesky fences to line up right. You can even specify different references for different targets as long as your careful to not click on anything that you don't want adjusted.

*The two Snaps are also useful for moving multiple objects into place at the same time when you've already assembled them together. For example, if you've spent forever trying to get the fence pieces together and then decide that you'd really rather have them 2 meters to the left.

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:lol: That giant candle is funny.

Here are my chapter 3 pics so far:

The Basics

The Extra Credit

I don't have the basement done yet, but is it alright to come back to it after chapter 4? I accidently started that one, thinking that it was chapter 3 :bagged:

Yes homework looks good but you need to post a pathing picture. You may do credit challenges at any time to earn extra points. :yes:

* I found out that fences, carpets and other objects may need to "fall" (using the F key) several times in order to be at the right height.

The F key is one of the most frequent crashers of the CS. You only need to tap it once to meet the first solid object. tapping F additionally to sink things through solid objects can have unpredictable results. It's better to line things up by hand once the object has dropped onto a surface.

*The autosave seems to work fine, so you might want to suggest that your students use that as well as saving often

I don't for a number of reasons. You may have had some success, but for some people it poses a problem, so it's not fair to recommend or suggest it as a standard practice; at best it's use at your own risk. New modders can become overly dependent on auto saving. I would rather encourage students to develop a habit of saving routinely, especially when doing crash prone techniques, because in 5 minutes you might not lose much work as a beginner, in a few months 5 minutes is a lot of work down the toilet because you tapped the F key one too many times. Additionally, auto save can lock in things that will make your mod dirty or unplayable, like the black texture bug, which is almost always unrecoverable and once saved, you're done.

*It looks like there's an option so that external cells won't automatically load in the preferences. The wiki didn't have much info on this option, unfortunately, so I don't know if it actually works

Not sure which option you mean, the Skip initial Cell Load? If you specify which feature I can likely explain it further. :question:

*You can set your Snap to Grid and Snap to Angle preferences to work relative to any reference in the cell. This is very handy for getting those pesky fences to line up right. You can even specify different references for different targets as long as your careful to not click on anything that you don't want adjusted.

*The two Snaps are also useful for moving multiple objects into place at the same time when you've already assembled them together. For example, if you've spent forever trying to get the fence pieces together and then decide that you'd really rather have them 2 meters to the left.

This is a CS BASICS class, these additional features are not covered in this class because they are not necessary for the tasks presented and throwing too much at new students is a quick way to overwhelm them. Additional materials have been written on basic snap to grid and the topic is covered even more in depth in Worldbuilding 101. It's valuable info, just outside the scope of this course, and not included by design rather than oversight. ;)

You have learned a great deal in your study, that's good. :smug:

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Fair enough, and thanks for the responses.

Not sure which option you mean...

If you go to preferences-->Misc, there's an option for "Skip Initial Cell Load On Editor Start."

The F key is one of the most frequent crashers of the CS.

I'm sure that this is my inexperience speaking again, but I've never had an issue with this, even when there isn't anything for the object reference to land on. Does this bug just randomly show up from time to time, or is there a reason behind the madness?

As for this being a basic class, I'll bow to your experience there. I can definitely see your point about not going off on different tangents.

You have learned a great deal in your study, that's good.

I have, thanks to you :thumbup:

As for the pathgrid, that's in the next lesson, but ok, here you go. That was one of the things from the next chapter that I'd started doing before realizing that it was chapter four. I've circled stuff in the pic, but I don't honestly remember from which chapter they belong.

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Skip Initial Cell Load On Editor Start

If this flag is unchecked then by default, whenever you start up the CS it will automatically load cell 0,0 in the render window. Waiting for that initial cell load can burden some PCs and make the initial load time for the CS much longer, which is probably why it's flagged by default. Since there's not always a reason to load cell 0,0 or any cell for that matter (sometimes I quest build with nothing in the render window, seems to aid performance) it's best to leave that flagged just for the smoother initial load. Certainly if you unchecked it the CS would not explode. :thumbup:

I'm sure that this is my inexperience speaking again, but I've never had an issue with this, even when there isn't anything for the object reference to land on. Does this bug just randomly show up from time to time, or is there a reason behind the madness?

This is a well documented bug, that you haven't experienced it yet is just due t limited time in the CS, and/or plain old fashioned luck. It is known to occur when the object you are dropping is non havoked and has nothing below to land on, and/or dropping from a distance equal or greater that 500 units. Rugs and rubble piles seem particularly prone to this, likely just because they are laid on the floor, which leaves only a very thin surface between them and the drop. So if you tap the F key and the rug lands on the floor and maybe you think it could go a little more flush and tap F again, you've over shot it, it goes through the collision of the floor and crash. If your mod has a single interior, probably gonna breeze through without incident, when you are cluttering dozens or hundreds of interiors, the chances of rolling this bug are much higher. :thumbup:

As for the pathgrid, that's in the next lesson

Apologies, I know that's for the next lesson, but for some reason I thought that's what you were asking permission to submit as you worked ahead. :shock: Regardless, pathing looks a bit sparse, you could use more connections. Also don't use blue nodes unless you are doing priority pathing for a specific behavior like an escort or something. They tend to attract anything walking by needlessly otherwise. :yes:

Go ahead and move forward with Lesson #4

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Alright, thanks for the explanations. I thought I was supposed to give high priority for crossing the bridge or something. Also, you said that the connections are sparse, but that the nodes are alright?

Edit: Is it alright if you have the connections between nodes go into the hillside as long as the nodes are on the ground? Maybe it would be better to have the nodes hanging in the air a little bit?

Also, I couldn't for the life of me find the rope fence guards that you'd mentioned (except for the ones that that bridge comes with). It is a static, right?

Edited by UmTheMuse
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Alright, thanks for the explanations. I thought I was supposed to give high priority for crossing the bridge or something. Also, you said that the connections are sparse, but that the nodes are alright?

More connections needed for sure, but a few more nodes wouldn't hurt either. XD

Is it alright if you have the connections between nodes go into the hillside as long as the nodes are on the ground? Maybe it would be better to have the nodes hanging in the air a little bit?

If your nodes are in the air, NPCs will climb them and drop down to the next, very erradically. Better to lay them on the ground properly, it's okay if the connections are hidden under the landscape so long as the nodes are not. :)

Also, I couldn't for the life of me find the rope fence guards that you'd mentioned (except for the ones that that bridge comes with). It is a static, right?

Yes, it's a static BraviRopel01 is the ID. :yes:

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Looks very nice, your house mesh is sitting a bit high, use the Z key to lower it, that front step should be half that height. :thumbup: You can move onto Lesson #4 when ready kori, I'll get to tallying up your points once you post your basement and pathing pics. :yes:

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Looks very nice, your house mesh is sitting a bit high, use the Z key to lower it, that front step should be half that height. :thumbup: You can move onto Lesson #4 when ready kori, I'll get to tallying up your points once you post your basement and pathing pics. :yes:

I know I did screenshots in CS before, I have some posted :) I just have to find it again.

It's kinda embarrassing for me, a college teacher, to feel like a forgetful student LOL :geek:

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More nodes would be preferred to such long connections, because when NPCs walk a line, they don't like to share it. More nodes, mean more people can walk it without stops. Try putting some more nodes it the exterior, basement pathing looks great :thumbup:

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We cover snap to grid concepts in lesson #1 and the snap to grid tutorial is pretty thorough. If you can tell me where you are struggling more precisely, I can break it down further to help you. :yes:

Homework looks very good, is your roof on fire though? :lol: When using a flame node to add smoke to the chimney, sink the fire down into the chimney out of sight. Or use Activator>FireSmokeMedium to not render the fire at all, just rotate the arrow upward and sink it into the chimney. :thumbup:

Full marks. :)

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We cover snap to grid concepts in lesson #1 and the snap to grid tutorial is pretty thorough. If you can tell me where you are struggling more precisely, I can break it down further to help you. :yes:

Homework looks very good, is your roof on fire though? :lol: When using a flame node to add smoke to the chimney, sink the fire down into the chimney out of sight. Or use Activator>FireSmokeMedium to not render the fire at all, just rotate the arrow upward and sink it into the chimney. :thumbup:

Full marks. :)

Oh, thank you so much for the tips!

I do remember "Snap to Grid" being mentioned in Lesson #1, and read the full article on that link provided in Lesson #3 - I'm just not understanding how to work it or work with it.

The linked article said it could all be done in the editor just by changing the Z access in the editor to the degree of angle from the starting section. (90, 180, etc.) - the image he posted showed all Y & X access set to zero and the Z access on the right set to 90.

I tried that and the piece ended up inside the starting section. So I ended up moving it manually - all of it. The numbers on the X axis were becoming astronomical for some odd reason. Did I mention I never took geometry? Urg!

For the first five section (first section through the first two attaching 90 degree angle pieces) I thought I was doing great. After that things got a little ... off. I decided (for some reason unknown to me) to do the two 4-way pieces next. That is when everything started going all to H. It was grueling, but I finally got it where it looked pretty decent. I put the outer sides on and began doing an inspection for tiny gaps or overlays before moving any further. (moving pieces at a rate of 25% so as not to over- or under- correct). Gaps could not be seen from some angles, but were glaringly obvious at other angles.

The "Snap to Grid" was on through-out all this. Am I supposed to see a grid? Because I didn't.

So finally I had everthing looking immaculate ... till I tried to put in the last piece, the "LThree-Way." It was way too small to fit in the large slot left for it, had huge gaps on all three connecting sides. I fiddled and fiddled and nothing worked - so I started from the beginning again, thinking that had to be where the original error was that was leaving a larger gap on just one piece of the Basement...but if that was the case, why was everything else fitting so perfectly? I scoured the list for another piece that may work there, none did.

After that, the more I fiddled the worse it got. Finally I got everything back to looking great, smooth as glass everywhere - and once again the "LThree-Way" was like 2X too small for the hole left for it to slide into.

Rather than pull my hair out screaming, I made the last piece 1.7X its original size (and it still didn't fit) - and shut down the CS. .

I know I can't leave one overgrown piece in there - but I'm out of guesses on what I've done wrong and how to fix it.

HEEEEELLLLPPP !!! Please?

Edited by mALX
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Okay, the very first piece you set always needs to be set to all 0.000 in all six columns. That is the start of the grid. The grid by the way is invisible, but when you have Snap to Grid turned on, the pieces find the grid. If a piece is off grid a single point, every piece will be off a point +1 so by the time to get to the end you have a gap 30 points wide :shock: Once you start building on grid, you can't just handplace things by eyeballing it, it will never line up. :smarty:

So, let's break down Snap to Grid in a little exercise, then you can start new on your basement. before we start, click on Preferences and make sure Snap to Grid is set at 16. :D

When that's done, our first piece is the dreaded UngrdLway

Drop that piece into the render window, double click on it I want yo to take note of something here. The rotation columns are all set to 0. Because when you drop in a piece of anything it will always be at a 0 rotation.

grid01.jpg

This will be important later, go ahead and set the 3 position rows to 0.000 to set your first piece at the starting point. You should end up with this.

grid02.jpg

Now if you don't have Snap to Grid turned on, go ahead and turn it on now. Before you add a second piece, always make sure you have this tool turned on, or you will end up just above or below the grid and it can get messy.

With Snap to Grid turned on, click on your piece and hit ctrl+d to duplicate the LWay It may not look like anything but the duplicate is there. Now HOLD the X key, click the piece, and move your mouse to drag the piece. As long as you hold X your piece will only move on the X axis.

grid03.jpg

Now release X and hold Y, move it. You will see it only moves along the Y axis now. Despite all this moving we are actually still on the grid. We want to form a small square room but alas, this piece is identical to the first so it's walls are in the way. By rotating it, we can make it opposite of the original and they will fit together. [Note Here, the same is not to be done in cave kits where each rotation has a unique piece to line up textures, rotating caves mis-aligns textures so don't do that]

Release all keys, hold the right mouse button and move it to Z turn your piece. Turn it until it looks like the walls would form a U shape.

grid04.jpg

To be on grid your rotation has to be at a perfect angle, most common are -90, 0, 90, and 180. You know the piece starts at 0 so once you've rotated the piece so it's close, double click on it and see which whole number it's rotation is now closest to then manually set it to that number and click okay to lock it in.

grid05.jpg

When both pieces are on grid you can free hand drag them around and still stay on grid. You don't want to move your start point because that's whet you build to, but now that your second piece is on grid and at the right angle, just snap them together like legos. When the Snap to Grid feature is on, your piece will move 16 units at a time.

Now we have two pieces together, let's kick it up a notch. Click on both piece by holding ctrl and clicking them in turn.

grid06.jpg

Now press ctrl+d to duplicate both pieces and pull them away

grid07.jpg

Just like duplicating dinner plates. XD

Now you want to rotate these new pieces, you can do them on at a time, or both together, just release all keys, hold the right mouse button and move it to Z turn your piece/s.

grid08.jpg

Once they are turned, we're going to double click on each in turn and even out the angle value. Close is never good enough. 89.999 not close enough, because each piece you add with add to that gap and it will become visible as a gap.

grid09.jpg

Now pieces are rotated, snap those legos to the others and we have a perfectly square room. :thumbup:

grid10.jpg

Make sure when you bring them together that you don't overshoot and overlap them, they just snap on next to one another. When you are done building, turn off snap to grid to cutter and place statics. Life is not on a grid, so use this feature to put kits together only. If you have more questions or if something is unclear, just ask. :popcorn:

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Before you add a second piece, always make sure you have this tool turned on, or you will end up just above or below the grid and it can get messy.

That may have been my fatal flaw, I had the second piece out already when I started the Snap to Grid.

I'm going to start from scratch using these directions step by step == Thank You so much !!!!

Have a cookie for helping me!!! :cookie4u: Thank you !!!

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This is AWESOME !!! Thank you so much, nothing could have been easier once you showed me how to do it! And I could use the X,Y, and Z cross-references to check up on myself and make sure they were matched up perfectly! Thank you so much, you can't imagine how grateful I am that you took the time to show me how to do it! You ROCK !!!

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I'm having issues with linking the ladder to the trap door in the house. I have moved the "landing markers" several times, but it keeps teleporting me to somewhere between the floors - in both directions. What have I done wrong?

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The Credit Challenge (basement) is complete with the exception of linking the trap door to the ladder. I messed up somehow, because teleporting either to the house or to the basement ends in it wedging me in the floor or wall spaces. I unchecked all the teleporters till I could get help. I didn't have any trouble whatsoever with the front door of the house, not sure what the issue is.

Here is a link to the screenshots of the basement :

http://s434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/Maxical1/TESAlliance%20Homework/

I can't thank you enough for your time and effort in teaching me about the "Snap to Grid!" - Boy did that make it easier! I left a message to you about it above this one - it was a HUGE difference !! Thank you l

*

*

Edited by mALX
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You're welcome and I'm glad you have perfected snap to grid now, it's very handy! :yes:

Your basement looks great, need a screenshot of your pathgrids, and need to sort out those doors. Some door objects will require some fancy positioning of the yellow door marker. Pull it out of the door, lower it with Z to rest on the floor at the bottom of the ladder and turn it so the purple arrow points in toward your room.

When you test make sure you use a clean save from before your mod was ever loaded. If your save is dirty and you hadn't adjusted the markers yet, they still won't work properly. :thumbup:

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