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Seeking Advice about Translucent Textures


CrisG9
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I would like to ask for advice from experts here on how the window system works in game....i am trying to create new windows with a view scene that is simply a 2D picture with light coming THROUGH it..ie a translucent texture. I understand from research to create such a texture you just create an alpha, and set the opacity to something like 50 percent or less so that light comes thru the texture. the challenge is to get an object to put the texture on that you can then place in certain windows, ie alcoves with some depth, so you can mount a light behind the texture and have it look like a window frame. So far, i have been painting the window frame on top of the picture and lighting it from the front, but i would really prefer full light behind like in the cathedral windows and the windows in many buildings in the game which appear to have a window texture and a light behind it.

This simplist system would be to light from the front but i have not found a way yet to make a texture with no shine. Does anyone know about that? If so, I could light from the front with an intense light and it would look like it was illuminated.

Can anyone advise in more detail on how the normal day light windows work in the game? and how to make an object with just one surface, such as an square shape or that is invisible that we could place in each window with the image texture on it?

thanks for advice on this, my efforts so far are fair, but not up to the standard that i think we need to make this system work. It is intended to work for situations where you just want light and a sense of a window but not a full detailed scene, which really is not pratical for a large building with a lot of windows. It is a same that Beth did not use some sort of simple system such as this, so i am going to try to work out a kit that anyone could use to instal it ....you would have to take the custom views outside your building to get accurate views but there is a chance with a script that you could get changing light as well, such as the current ACS lighitng system, just using a sequence of images to get times of day changes.

med_gallery_2073_157_92952.jpg

Another thing that would be nice is to have empty window frames with the leading pattern to overlay the pictures with but so far i have not found any such meshes anyone has made..if anyone has made them or knows of them please let me know. Meo's new Castle Keep has windows but they have textures in them already and he has not released it yet anyway. If you read this Meo, maybe you have some ideas on this...or can help me. My hope is to make this as a resource for the community as i have wanted to have some sort of simple window view system for some of the really dark and depressing interiors like the low class homes..and the castles....thanks

Edited by CrisG9
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Have you looked at Yevic's houses? (Search through downloads section). He's already accomplished this.

Hopefully he'll show up to offer more advise, but my understanding is he has a custom mesh, like a curved square (curved to add depth) that he applies the picture to and places outside the window of the interior mesh. Whether he places lights in front or behind I don't know, myself, I would place it behind, with scripts to turn on and off during night/day. You would then need to change the window textures in whatever interior mesh you're using to make the glass fully transparent, so that the window frame for that particular window is there, but now see through.

I'm sure if you ask him he'll allow his meshes to be used as a resource.

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ah thank you very much, that is great news. I was looking at glow mapping possible as a way to illuminate the image that is the tricky part so far for me to get a realistic light thru the image..

i dont know yet how to make a window glass transparent as i the window textures i have seen so far have coloured glass in them...

i found this about glowmapping on the net:

Glow Maps

Some nifs use Glow maps, and look like: Sword_g.dds. Much like the normal map setup, the engine automatically seeks out the _g.dds. They control how the material is affected by darkness. By default, Oblivion's engine will fade a texture to gray as it moves into darkness. The glow map can override that. Take a look at glass armor for an example. Looking at Sword_g.dds in photoshop, we see a graysale image. Black means not affected, and white is fully lit when in complete darkness. There is an alpha channel, but I haven't noticed it doing anything in my tests.

Another neat trick here, is to make a colored glow map. For example, black fading into an intense red. Now, you will see that as displayed in the light there is no red. When in the darkness, You will see the red, and how it fades out.

Say you retextured a chainmail cuirass, but want to use a glow map?

All you need is the glow map file in the correct folder with the correct name and a white emissive color.

The first thing to do is make sure your glow map is named with _g at the end. So if your texture file is 'Sword.dds', then your glowmap would be 'Sword_g.dds'.

Now, go to the NiMaterialProperty in NifSkope and click on the palette icon. Move the Emissive slider to White, and save.

You should now have a working glow map.

You can also assign a glow map in NifSkope. I know of a couple Oblivion nifs that have done this, and it doesn't seem to cause problems. Right click the NiTexturingProperty, and select Texture>Add Glow map. This method is really only good for seeing what you are doing in NifSkope, and only serves to make your nif a little bit bigger in filesize. But it can be handy to see what you are doing, if you need a reference while you are working on your textures.

Edited by CrisG9
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My challenge in this situation is that the window alcove i am using has no opening, it is really just a wall alcove so i am trying to set in a very shallow view...

i see what you mean about Yevic's those look very nice...but i will have to figure out how to get transparent windows....the ones in the game are all opaque I think, i am not sure as i havent looked at all of them and i am downloading the AWLS system now to study how they did it, but they used glowmapped textures and i will have to learn how to do that...aside from just adding _.g to the texture ending. those also illinimate in the dark and i hope to create this new system in lighted rooms and daylight as well.

thanks again, and i will look at Yevic's castle, it looks very nice.

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Glow mapping is not what you want to do here. Glow mapping is used to highlight specific areas of your texture, to make it stand out. For example, rune symbols on a sword. It's not for generic "make some light on this texture".

AWLS is for outside windows, not interiors. You won't find any help there for what you want to do.

As for the windows themselves, you will have to take the texture, outline the "glass" parts only, copy that section, create an alpha channel, paste the glass outlines. You may have to invert the colours.. you want the glass black, the rest normal. Save as DXT3. In Nifskope, take your interior, change the "windows" texture to your new one, add a NiAlphaProperty. Your glass should now be transparent.

Make sure you name your new textures to something else, or you'll change all the windows in game :lol:

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thanks Hana, ya the glow did not work ......

thanks for the help re making the glass transparent, i will try that, i was just studying how to flatten and combine textures.... there is a lot of new stuff to learn here but I am determined to try to make this work if possible..thanks so much for your help. i do appreciate it.

A challenge is that it appears that the windows in the game are part of the building walls, not sepearte...so i cant move them INTO the castle wall of the type i am trying to create. I am not sure if it is possible to cut a hole in a wall mesh such as the castle sections...or how to do it yet to fit a window frame into it... but i will keep working on it. I hope to add windows to some of the lower class houses too that have none so this will be helpful for that.

Another problem i am having is that the object i place to "hold" the image is falling out of the window so i will have to figure out how to make a static surface object.

thanks again.

Edited by CrisG9
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Well, yes, windows in the game are part of "some" texture, whether it includes walls or frames or other stuff too, but it is still entirely possible to take that texture and only make the "window" part transparent.

I have no idea what you mean about the "object you place to hold the image is falling out of the window"...

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i had to put the texture ON something to place it...so i used a blank canvas as the object to place IN The window opening to create the view. the reason i had to do this is that i am trying to place a window where there was none, just an alcove...as i wanted to create windows in castle sections that had none. I may also try to place windows in some of the houses that have none. So I am trying to work out a system to create windows from scratch, not just retexture existing ones in house models.

ok i will research things more...and work on the texture conversion.

thank you very much for the help Hana.

Edited by CrisG9
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In that case, nothing I said is going to help you yet. I had misunderstood and thought there were 'windows' already there.

You'll need to modify castle meshes to put windows in and / or maybe just create window meshes in various shapes and sizes. The blank canvas won't work as it's a havoked item, not static.

Asking for advise on texturing the windows is getting ahead of yourself. This is not simple.

If you just use one window mesh, you'll need to texture it with the "view", plus any window frame to go along with it. This means unique textures for every single window you want to create.

If you cut "windows" out of buildings (not fun), you could use a window frame, plus Yevic's idea of a curved mesh behind it for the "view".

Maybe someone can see this more simpler than I can, but that's my best advise so far. :)

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Since I am adding this new transparent window texture to some object that is going to be solid, i will need to make that object transparent too..

Hanna, I was not sure what you meant by

n Nifskope, take your interior, change the "windows" texture to your new one, add a NiAlphaProperty.

my first effort at making transparent window texture is attached if anyone can take a look and see how i did, it would be great...i dont know how to test it yet as i dont know yet how to mount this without a window mesh to work with.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20824167/TransWindow1.zip

UPDATE: OK, i think this one may be better but i am not sure which of the textures to use with the alpha...i am guessing the original window tex from OB and then the normal map?

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20824256/TransWindow2.zip

Edited by CrisG9
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That quote is about the object you attach the texture to, so doesn't matter yet as you don't have one.

Looking at your texture, no, it won't work. You've given it a completely white alpha channel. Re-read what I said above; It's advanced texturing and will take a few tries.

As for the windows themselves, you will have to take the texture, outline the "glass" parts only, copy that section, create an alpha channel, paste the glass outlines. You may have to invert the colours.. you want the glass black, the rest normal.

And please, be very careful and rename any textures you modify, or you'll change things in your (and everyone elses) game that you don't want to do. XD

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thanks Hana, did you look at example #2?

i thought i did it right that time.

I inverted the colours and then did the normal map from that...

i will look at Castle Eltz and see how he made his, that may help me, as i am not understanding yet how to make the 'just glass" image to start with,since once you close a loop with the magnetic tracer in Photoshop you have to just just that one area to copy...

i will keep trying..thanks for the help.

UPDATE: ok

i looked at what Yevic did, and he used a mesh that is IN the game, it is called glasspain and is a clear sheet of glass, that will help. then he created the metal lattice of the windows i guess made that a custom mesh and used the one of the metal textures from the barset. So i will need to find or create a window mesh or just paint the mullion lattice on to the texture.

i am guessing if i succeed in learning how to make invisible window texture i can possibly use that texture with the window frame and lattice outline on the windowpain mesh from the game and it could work with the image for the view on a second pain of glass behind it and a light source behind them both.

Edited by CrisG9
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Well i am almost there Meo, just have to put it together, the technical problems are around manipulating the mesh, if needed, and finding a way to install a very shallow window box. The last technical problem with my current system was that the object i used as a plane to hold the window texture was falling out of the game...but WillieSea kindly helped me learn to make statics. That should solve that problem. The Curved plane that Yevick uses is very nice but I think will not work in the wall alcoves i am working with in this project. As a first phase, i am hoping to develop a simple method of creating window boxes in wall features.

As to my problems learning how to make transparent window textures, well i remain hopeful that i can do that, i just have to understand how.

I think i have the glare on the window view texture problem worked out, i found out you can create a matte texture by flattening it completely and i was using height on the alpha. So I think that problem is out of the way. Now i can put a light in front of the view and it wont glare it out.

As for my level of modding skill, we all had to learn things from nothing to start with and i have been doing professional creative work as an artist for over 40 years so i have learned I learn best by doing. Help and advice is always welcome but i am not going to give up. If anyone wants to help me that is fine and very welcome.

Yes i have been taking the tutorial classes and plan to keep going on that too. For now, i will try to do what I can, as the window project is something i have wanted to do for over a year ...just did not have the energy to try to work it thru.

I guess what I am trying to say simply is that yes, it take me time to learn things and i will look dumb and stupid ..during that process but i have to be honest about what i can't do :blink: until i CAN do it ;)

Edited by CrisG9
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Today the new "SeeWindows" system worked. It is simple as pie, but it works...and brings a touch of outside inside with a minimum of fuss and bother.

here are two proof of concept pics and i will pack up a llittle tutorial and pack of resources as soon as i have time, i did not in the end have to use anything but vanilla meshes and my own textures...and lighting was an important part of making it work...as well as making a matte texture....which is made by erasing an alpha all the way....simplest way to do it.

newlibrary1.jpg

newlibraryview.jpg

thanks to both Hana and Meo for advice that is very much appreciated..and WilleSee helped me learn how to make statics out of objects which made a stable location possible for the insert of the view. Thanks so much W!

.and i will work on more advanced forms including windows set into walls, when i have time. Must work on the Sutch project for now.

Edited by CrisG9
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