Jump to content

DOWNLOAD MODS

Are you looking for something shiny for your load order? We have many exclusive mods and resources you won't find anywhere else. Start your search now...

LEARN MODDING

Ready to try your hand at making your own mod creations? Visit the Enclave, the original ES/FO modding school, and learn the tricks of the trade from veteran modders...

JOIN THE ALLIANCE

Membership is free and registering unlocks image galleries, project hosting, live chat, unlimited downloads, & more...

Skyrim & Steam


Vince
 Share

Recommended Posts

Apparently Skyrim will use Steam for DRM. The following was on the net today:" Bethesda revealed that the PC version of its upcoming Elder Scrolls title will use Valve's Steamworks platform for DRM. As with Fallout: New Vegas, that goes for copies purchased through retailers and Steam itself. Once you activate the game, you can play the title in Steam's offline mode without an Internet connection. We assume Steam will also be used to serve achievements, patches and downloadable content".

I've learned from others that there is more than one way a program can be made available through Steam. For some games, unfortunately including Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the game is loaded by Steam on your computer and it monitors your use and sends that information back to the vendor. Apparently, that use is not limited to the game, but anything you do! I think (but do not know for sure) that that monitoring does not happen if you use Steam in the offline mode. If this is the way Fallout New Vegas was distributed, I would like to hear from anyone who knows more.

If that monitoring is still done in offline mode (and uploaded next time you connect), I'll either have to stick to Oblivion and Morrowind or find another hobby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that monitoring is still done in offline mode (and uploaded next time you connect), I'll either have to stick to Oblivion and Morrowind or find another hobby.

I feel exactly the same. If all it does is report how often I play a specific game, I'm fine with that. But I'm most definitely not fine with it reporting everything I do. I'm a lab technician and regularly have to access the office database from home. Valve has absolutely no right whatsoever to gather, store or distribute that information. If that's how Steam operates, it is nothing more than spyware. Requiring someone to install spyware on their system just to use a retail copy of something is utterly ridiculous. Until I know one way or the other, I won't even begin to commence to get ready to start thinking about even considering installing Skyrim. I do have a program that will prevent a program from accessing the internet if I tell it to, but that might keep Skyrim from working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure you're not confusing steam with whatever new service EA (?) is rolling out? I've heard those things about it, but not Steam. Either way, you're overestimating the amount of control it has. They're not going to be reading your emails or documents. It tracks how much you play games, which games you play, and, I think, sites you visit on the internet. Google does just as much; facebook and amazon get close. You have every right to not play Skyrim, but don't think that you're anonymous on the internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It tracks how much you play games, which games you play, and, I think, sites you visit on the internet.

That's one of the issues I have. I've gotten into affiliate marketing as a way of getting some extra income. As such, I'm extremely wary of this thing reporting that information to Valve. They have no need to collect it, nor do they need to know:

what forums I visit or how often

how often I visit/upload to Flickr.com, Photobucket.com or any other photo sharing site

how often I visit/buy from Bestbuy.com, Amazon.com, BN.com or any other retail website

how often I update my Facebook or Google+ pages

how often I visit NotAlwaysRight.com, or any other website for that matter (especially non-game related sites)

I could fill dozens (if not hundreds) of pages with things they have no reason to collect. I've read their privacy policy, and it's very good. It's heavily geared towards maintaining the user's privacy, but I do have problems with it. Under certain circumstances (which they don't elaborate on), they will share their collected data with affiliates (whom they don't identify). When that happens, what is done with the data is determined by the privacy policy of the affiliate, which I will not have agreed to (since I have no clue who they are). While this is a standard practice with many, many companies, I still find it very disturbing that, within months (if not weeks or days), the information that Valve collects could be in the possession of hundreds or thousands of companies whose privacy policies I haven't investigated or agreed to (and whose databases may not be as secure as they should be).

I find it highly objectionable for Bethesda to require us to submit to this just to play their game. Granted, this is supposed to be a method of preventing/reducing piracy, but it doesn't come even remotely close to working. Just look on this Nexus forum and do a search for Piracy, Vegas to get an idea. There are at least 130 now banned users listed there, and that's just the ones dumb enough to openly admit they pirated Falllout: New Vegas. Clearly, requiring Steam does absolutely nothing to stem piracy. All it does is compromise the privacy of those who purchase legitimate copies of the game.

As good as Bethesda's games are, I'm just not willing to submit myself to this in order to play them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There hasn't been any direct evidence (yet) that Steam tracks more than just your usage time in the client. That doesn't mean it won't though. Valve's EULA contains all of the same legalese that would allow them to track "user generated content" via their statistics and other data. Put simply, yes, they're exactly as bad as EA and the Origin system.

As a DRM suite, Steamworks is utterly useless. New Vegas was cracked 2 days prior to release. Deus Ex:HR was cracked the day before release. I fully expect to hear of people having cracked Skyrim and enjoying it without the hassles involved long before any of us actually get to touch it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam has a lot of bad things with pricing being the worst but I think it doesn't track anything else besides your game time and the kind of hardware that's on your computer (if you choose to let them do it), among other surveys. It does allow you to link your Facebook profile to your Steam account and that's it.

If it allows you to play Skyrim offline, the better. I have never had problems with Steam so far, besides the usual crashes but that's bound to happen. Then again, I restrict my Steam usage to GE:S and the HL series (I won't touch TF2 with a ten-foot pole now, even after spending money on it and some quality time in the beginnings).

With that being said, their privacy policy statement is really confusing in some parts, as you guys have pointed out.

I have never tried playing a Steam game in Offline mode but I will and then I'll report back. A couple of hours of Portal should suffice.

EDIT: It doesn't seem to log your offline gaming time. I played Portal for a while and it didn't record anything on the recent gaming stats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've used Steam for years and purchased quite a few games through them.

My one and only complaint: sometimes when launching a game, the internet connection can be slow, causing a long delay while it checks for the latest version. Switching to offline mode solves this.

To date, I have not experienced any privacy issues, nor has the email address that I supplied to Steam received any spam.

A bonus for Morrowind, Oblivion and presumably Skyrim players: it backs up all your save files, and you can load your saves from anywhere you log in. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure you're not confusing steam with whatever new service EA (?) is rolling out? I've heard those things about it, but not Steam. Either way, you're overestimating the amount of control it has. They're not going to be reading your emails or documents. It tracks how much you play games, which games you play, and, I think, sites you visit on the internet. Google does just as much; facebook and amazon get close. You have every right to not play Skyrim, but don't think that you're anonymous on the internet.

Lady_Nerevar, no I'm not confusing Steam with EA's new service. I have a friend who is a support technician at a gaming computer company. He has been playing Battlefield 2 with Steam. Although it's more intrusive that he likes, he's continued with it, partly because it allows him to play with other remote friends. However, as you may know, Battlefield 3 is using EA's new Steam-like service. After reading through their long EULA, he decided to not get Battlefield 3.

As far as privacy goes, as The Vyper pointed out, their (Steam's) EULA does allow them to collect data and under certain, not defined, circumstances they can share/give that data to "affiliates" and they don't define exactly who or what an affiliate is. And I need to agree to that to play a legitimately purchased single player game? I don't think so. As I said before, if the offline mode is the same, I'll pass.

Anyone who has any definitive information about Steam in offline mode, please post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've found Steam to be a far superior service to my local retailers, and a far less obnoxious method of DRM than many others; I think Steam is very much involved with taking gaming culture and the gaming community to exciting new places, and I think it's great that Bethesda's games are part of that.

The EULA concerns are valid though, and that's one very bad place things are going: that we don't buy things, but merely the privelige to use them. Ownership and control are retained by publishers.

As for DRM, steam is as effective as it gets, which is to say, completely ineffective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as i would love to use this as an excuse against Steam, I cant because it is simply false. Steam doesnt collect any information aside from time played and computer info if you allow it. Any other information gained outside the bounds of steam would be illegal.

The only real issue anyone should be concerend about with Steam, is the impending Anti-trust lawsuit that will eventually be filed against valve, And the fact that patches can no longer be manually downloaded and applied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam is not spyware, it only tracks your games usage (such as achievements and play time) and your computer hardware specs. These specs are infomation that is publicly available and is the info they share with cooperation's. (so that companies know the most common hardware etc).

I have never had a problem with Steam, it is now the way i keep in contact with friends (as it mean even when we are playing games we can get in contact). The DRM on it is not too restrictive (install on any computer with steam as many times as you like). The only problem the lack of an internet connection if you dont have one, but in today's world, you have internet for when you install.

I resisted steam at first, but once you start using it, you'll come to like it aswell.....its DRM that offers you extra features.

EA's new Origin has some dodgy clauses in their EULA....I'm staying away from that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam is not spyware, it only tracks your games usage (such as achievements and play time) and your computer hardware specs. These specs are infomation that is publicly available and is the info they share with cooperation's. (so that companies know the most common hardware etc).

Well, that's good to hear. I may not pass up Skyrim after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam's EULA still leaves the possibility open for them to do a lot more than just achievements and client time usage. Seriously, if people are going to complain about EA and their terms, I don't see why an equal amount of anger isn't being directed at the 900 pound gorilla in the room that has been doing it for years with the same terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After doing more research, I've determined that Steam's use and distribution of user information is defined in their Subscriber Aggreement, especially Section 7. USER GENERATED DATA, and their Privacy Policy. There is no reference to "Offline Mode" in these documents, so apparently that doesn't lessen the pain.

You would need to be a lawyer to determine exactly what "usage data" is, which you must agree to allow them to "use, reproduce, ... distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display" without your knowledge or consent. Would someone please explain to me what this has to do with DRM?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After doing more research, I've determined that Steam's use and distribution of user information is defined in their Subscriber Aggreement, especially Section 7. USER GENERATED DATA, and their Privacy Policy. There is no reference to "Offline Mode" in these documents, so apparently that doesn't lessen the pain.

You would need to be a lawyer to determine exactly what "usage data" is, which you must agree to allow them to "use, reproduce, ... distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display" without your knowledge or consent. Would someone please explain to me what this has to do with DRM?

After reading through that, it looks like they want you to believe they can use only what you provide by using the software (presumably when you sign up) and whatever you do on Valve's site (screen names, forum posts, etc.).

What really bothers me about that section is the part that says "may include, but is not limited to". Okay, how about telling us everything that's included so we can actually make an informed decision? Not defining/elaborating on "but is not limited to" basically gives them free reign to collect whatever they feel like collecting from your computer. Family Photos? Valve's. Financial records? Valve's. Passwords? Valve's. Personal documents that you don't trust anybody (including your family) with? Valve's. That porn collection you thought you deleted? Valve's. Patient information (for those in the medical fields)? Valve's.

What's even worse than them not telling you precisely what the collect is this bit:

you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

In other words, they can take what they want from your computer, when they want to and do whatever they want with it. This has nothing to do with DRM, yet I have to agree to it in order to play Skyrim on PC? :blink: No way in hell is that going to happen! Looks like I won't be playing any more Bethesda games (or any other PC game that requires this garbage).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam is not DRM. It is absolutely useless as an anti-piracy scheme. What it DOES do, is kill the legitimate secondary market for games.

Steam is a form of DRM in that the disc does not have the exe in it and is downloaded at the last minute of installing. This worries me because Steam WILL go down eventually. There is no refuting that possability. What I worry about is when it does, what will happen to Steamworks games? What about RAGE which had the huge memory issue? You NEED to patch to make the game playable on PC, and 10-15 years down the line, where will this patch be? Because of Steamworks, patches are not being released for manual download and application.

Another issue I have is, if they want to eliminate second hand sales, why don't console games have keys? Keys on PC games are not DRM, they are sales control. The DRM is the copy protection.

I dislike steam for the sole reason of, any games connected to it will be useless once the eventual fall of Steam occurs. And with the rate they are taking over the market, they are just begging for an anti-trust lawsuit. On the flip side, I love it because of the sales.

I don't care about the "Having all your games in one place" because I am not a lazy sap. I don't care for the friends list because I rarely use it. Its conversant to have but without use, its just extra crap taking up resources.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question is whether or not steam is going to interfere with mods like it has for many other games. Its been proven that there hardwiring into there games has screwed up several mods and frankly I think that is utter bs. However that is my opinion and everyone has there own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think what we're all missing here is the fact that we're dealing with corporate america's "jump on the bandwagon, or walk to rome." idi(ot)ology. as much as i hate the whole "Big Brother" spetsnaz concept, i've never had any issues with steam. (other than the occasional fit of rage in MW2/BlackOps) Both steam and bethsoft are comapnies in the end, and just want your money. is it evil? yes. is it necessary? maybe. is it here? absolutely.

here's the bottom line:

______________________________________

Profits.$$$$

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steam is a form of DRM in that the disc does not have the exe in it and is downloaded at the last minute of installing. This worries me because Steam WILL go down eventually. There is no refuting that possability. What I worry about is when it does, what will happen to Steamworks games? What about RAGE which had the huge memory issue? You NEED to patch to make the game playable on PC, and 10-15 years down the line, where will this patch be? Because of Steamworks, patches are not being released for manual download and application.

It's sad to see so many people confidently stating that Steam is too big to fail and even if they do, patches will be released so it'll all be okay. Valve/Steam are a very small and therefore not invulnerable company (I've certainly known much bigger tech companies go to the wall: I worked for one, DEC, and another "too big" company, Sun, was recently bought by Oracle causing existing customers all manner of problems, to name just two) so it's certainly not unlikely, as you say. Then the new owners or administrators making sure their old customers are catered for? Seems extremely unlikely to me: it'll be a time-consuming and costly exercise and will come so far down their list of priorities that it's very unlikely to happen IMHO. If Valve/Steam is bought or goes out of business, we'll most likely be cast adrift. (I think someone mentioned it's a privately held concern, but there's no guarantee it'll stay that way and it still doesn't make them invulnerable.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the posts so far, I'm glad I started this thread.

As Arthmoor pointed out, the wording of the USER GENERATED DATA portion of the Subscriber Agreement does allow the collection and use of a lot more than just game statistics. I'm aware that most people are reasonably satisfied with Steam's service and I do believe that they only collect game and system statistics. What worries me is, if the evil ones get control, they could invade my privacy far deeper. Also, some may say that I'm a control freak, but I like to have control over what software is installed on my computer. If I sign up to Steam, I loose that control.

I've decided to dedicate one computer to Steam games only. Besides Skyrim, I want to play Deus Ex HR and the Portal games. I'll do everything else, including online purchases, etc. on a different computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...