Stormcloak or Imperial?

[Dark_Ansem]

went stormcloak the 1st time, discovered Ulfric's past, will always be imperial now.

[HeyYou]

Hello all. This is my first post in this forum.

I'm a stormcloak soldier all the way. Why? I believe Ulfric's cause is right, that the claims of his corruption and greed are false, and that the Empire is dying, and has no chance of defeating the Thalmor the way it is now. I can tell from Ulfric's dialogue with Galmar that he truly believes in his cause and cares for his people. I believe that an independent Skyrim can still work with the Empire in the face of incoming danger, and Skyrim does not have to be under the Empire's boot to work with eachother.

Other groups in TES have done this with much more blood and grudges much more deep between them and have worked together before, so there's no reason to believe the stormcloaks and imperials can't in the event of an independent Skyrim. I believe that those who would sacrifice freedoms for safety don't deserve to be free, and the Empire does not care about its provinces. History has shown this with Hammerfell, and Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis.

They did nothing to help Valenwood from the Thalmor, and they if they have to will sacrifice every province for their own selfish needs. I don't blame them for this, as this is the nature of Empires, but this is exactly why Skyrim must be free of it. It is no longer of any use to Skyrim besides the convenient shield it provides between Skyrim and the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire just doesn't seem like it is up to fight. They seem broken, but the stormcloaks are not. For that reason, and the fact that the Empire allows the injustice of the Thalmor to happen out of fear, I side with the Stormcloaks.

I gave the Imperials a chance before. I ended up deleting my first character because they left me with a bad taste in my mouth after I finished the quest and learned more about the situation. Never again.

Welcome to TESA.

Yes, the empire is dying, and Skyrim becoming independent will only accelerate that end. Skyrim by itself stands little chance against the Aldmeri Dominion.... considering that the whole of the empire had to knuckle under to them..... expecting a single province to be able to go it alone is probably just a dream. Skyrim is (apparently) too sparsely populated to put up a real defense against the inevitable invasion, should the stormcloaks actually win....

Of course, I am not real thrilled with the empire either... considering my first exposure to them is sitting in the back of a wagon, heading off to be executed...... Not exactly confidence inspiring....

[Beana]

I still have yet to chose a side. I pretty much talk to everyone I can and kinda hang out with both of them. Havent come to a decision really as who to chose though I am kinda veering towards the cloaks...

[ColonelKillaBee]

Welcome to TESA.

Yes, the empire is dying, and Skyrim becoming independent will only accelerate that end. Skyrim by itself stands little chance against the Aldmeri Dominion.... considering that the whole of the empire had to knuckle under to them..... expecting a single province to be able to go it alone is probably just a dream. Skyrim is (apparently) too sparsely populated to put up a real defense against the inevitable invasion, should the stormcloaks actually win....

Of course, I am not real thrilled with the empire either... considering my first exposure to them is sitting in the back of a wagon, heading off to be executed...... Not exactly confidence inspiring....

It's also unrealistic in my opinion to think that Skyrim will try to fight them on their own. They will most certainly look for allies, like Hammerfell, Morrowind (Unlikely, but its happened before) and the Empire. That alliance isn't as unlikely as you may think when you consider that Nords make up a very large portion of the Empire's soldiers. So basically, if I'm being honest, it doesn't really matter who you choose. Both sides will seek alliances and take it to the Thalmor. It's just a matter of which side will make this happen first, and whether you want an independent Skyrim or not. But both sides are equally viable in the long run. The Empire needs the nords more than people realize. They will work together. Ulfric says he'd be willing to if the Talos ban is dropped, which after Skyrim is independent it is. So if a thalmor invasion is on the way, or a human invasion to the Aldmeri is, they'd unite no doubt.

Oh, and thanks! Glad to be a member.

Edited December 18, 2012 by ColonelKillaBee

[DarkRider]

There's just something disengenuine about Ulfric Stormcloak. I'm not saying the Imperial side is better but Ulfric didn't inspire me to his plight. Might have something to do with his murdering the king to start his campaign

[Khettienna]

I don't love either side, but Ulfric murdering his king and inciting civil war in the face of the Thalmor threat shows an alarming lack of basic logic skills.

[InsanitySorrow]

I've tried both sides, like neither

[Hanaisse]

Ulfric did not murder the king! He was challenged in the old Nord ways and lost. Deal with it.

[Arthmoor]

Given all the information you can soak up in the game, I'm pretty sure Skyrim and Hammerfell forming an alliance would be the end of the Thalmor. Why? Hammerfell fought the Thalmor off ALL BY THEMSELVES after the Empire abandoned them. Redguards and Nords in an army, marching on the Elves, it will be glorious. The Cyrodiilic softies can choke on it

[ColonelKillaBee]

Ulfric did not murder the king! He was challenged in the old Nord ways and lost. Deal with it.

Exactly.

There's just something disengenuine about Ulfric Stormcloak. I'm not saying the Imperial side is better but Ulfric didn't inspire me to his plight. Might have something to do with his murdering the king to start his campaign

He's not very inspiring unless you're a nord, I'll admit. Luckily I almost always am. I find it easy to join him as a redguard though. Or a dunmer for the irony, and to show that Dunmer can be valuable members of an independent Skyrim.

And to Nord law, what Ulfric did was not murder.

Edited December 18, 2012 by ColonelKillaBee

[ColonelKillaBee]

Given all the information you can soak up in the game, I'm pretty sure Skyrim and Hammerfell forming an alliance would be the end of the Thalmor. Why? Hammerfell fought the Thalmor off ALL BY THEMSELVES after the Empire abandoned them. Redguards and Nords in an army, marching on the Elves, it will be glorious. The Cyrodiilic softies can choke on it

Badass barbarian two handed weapon wielding hearty mead drinking vikings + most badass swordsmen in all of Tamriel=Thalmor on their knees begging for mercy!

[Khettienna]

I don't want to nitpick about syntax or word choice, I just meant that he deliberately and with intent killed the king. Whether or not said premeditated killing was allowed by Nord law isn't really the point, the point was that imo he picked a really dumb time to be a political diva and cause all that chaos. "Can" and "should" being not the same, and all that.

[DarkRider]

Yep, this

I don't want to nitpick about syntax or word choice, I just meant that he deliberately and with intent killed the king. Whether or not said premeditated killing was allowed by Nord law isn't really the point, the point was that imo he picked a really dumb time to be a political diva and cause all that chaos. "Can" and "should" being not the same, and all that.

The Imperials agreeing to disown Talos was stupid, such an obvious clause in the Concordat to cause just this sort of civil tearing in the Empire.

[Khettienna]

I agree, but they were backed against the wall to do it, and the Stormcloaks using that as a point of righteousness for their cause just further proves to me that Ulfric ain't my guy.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Well, Ulfric did give Toryyg the chance to join his side or at least speak out to what he was saying. His followers say he would've joined his side if Ulfric asked, but Ulfric couldn't possibly know that. All he knew of Toryyg was that he was the Empire's posterboy, and that he was weakening his beloved country by suckling the Empire's teets and allowing Thalmor to do what they will. If you ask me, Toryyg got plenty of chances, and Ulfric was done waiting. I would've done the same thing.

He's a man of action. He's not hasty though, as his patience with Whiterun and Balgruuf will show. You can tell from his dialogue with Galmar that he's a patient man, which really makes me think Toryyg really didn't show any interest to Ulfric's cause at all. I think the young king brought it on himself, personally.

Yes, Toryyg had zero chance against Ulfric, thu'um or no thu'um, but that is irrelevant. You gotta look at it from a nord perspective. He followed the ancient law, and Toryyg accepted. Toryyg, as a king under the Empire could have said no. People said that would be a political suicide, but if you look at the people on his side, and the Empires, Toryyg would have had more if a moot was called, and Ulfric still would have lost, and Toryyg would remain King.

Even if you think what Ulfric did was wrong, to me that doesn't matter. No country becomes free without breaking a few necessary eggs. You do what you must. War is not pretty,

[WillieSea]

I find the whole premise of the little island where the Thalmor come from being able to take over the huge landmass of Tamriel to be a bit far fetched. Their threat is small and would be short lived in the best case for them.

Invaders on the Tamriel continent would never last very long, because the entire population would soon revolt under their tyranical rule. History shows us this much.

Edited December 19, 2012 by WillieSea

[ColonelKillaBee]

I find the whole premise of the little island where the Thalmor come from being able to take over the huge landmass of Tamriel to be a bit far fetched. Their threat is small and would be short lived in the best case for them.

Invaders on the Tamriel continent would never last very long, because the entire population would soon revolt under their tyranical rule. History shows us this much.

Summerset Isle is actually pretty big.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120706152112/elderscrolls/images/e/e4/Map_tamriel.jpg

Although I do agree, it would be short lived. Only people that would willingly fight with them is the Khajiit. That's really not enough. Everyone else would eventually revolt.

[Arthmoor]

Actually the Bosmer went along with this of their own will as well. Once the Thalmor have Valenwood and Elsewyr, it's a whole new ball game as far as invading Tamriel.

Morrowind is too weak after all that happened post-Oblivion. The Elves are not foolish enough to attempt to invade Argonia, which had seceded by this point. Which doesn't leave a whole lot to stop the Elves from marching right into Cyrodiil, which is basically what caught everyone off guard.

By the time Skyrim starts, the Empire is already in shambles and there's no likely hope of that ever getting fixed. You aren't going to win a war with High Rock and Cyrodiil vs the new Aldmeri Dominion. Stranger things have happened though and we don't really know where Bethesda intends to take this.

[WillieSea]

As with any invading army, they cannot sustain the army for long enough before the massive population of the land they have invaded decides that enough is enough. There appears to be plenty of weapons available to anyone who wants one, thats for sure. (by looking at all the look I take from the game, I could supply an army with weapons and armor.) Wasn't there already elves in control of the newly named "Imperial city", and the whole country, before they were also finally overthrown? (Read that as the Aleyid slave masters. You would think the Elves would have learned their lesson.)

And the Summerset isles isnt any bigger than Valenwood, or Skyrim, or any of the seperate provinces. The entire mass of Tamriel is at least 8 times bigger than the isles. Even with the traitors help on Tamriel, there are just too many people to control for very long.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Actually the Bosmer went along with this of their own will as well. Once the Thalmor have Valenwood and Elsewyr, it's a whole new ball game as far as invading Tamriel.

Morrowind is too weak after all that happened post-Oblivion. The Elves are not foolish enough to attempt to invade Argonia, which had seceded by this bosmer don't want the thampoint. Which doesn't leave a whole lot to stop the Elves from marching right into Cyrodiil, which is basically what caught everyone off guard.

By the time Skyrim starts, the Empire is already in shambles and there's no likely hope of that ever getting fixed. You aren't going to win a war with High Rock and Cyrodiil vs the new Aldmeri Dominion. Stranger things have happened though and we don't really know where Bethesda intends to take this.

Na, The thalmor seized power of the Aldmeri Dominion, which includes summerset isles and Valenwood. The bosmer dont want them in charge any more than the altmer of summerset isles do under their boot.

[ashleyclark]

First time posting here so I hope no one minds that I voice my opinion.

I agree with WillieSea and ColonelKillaBee.

When I first started playing Skyrim, I was in the back of a wagon, all trussed up by Imperials, and they did not care why I was there, only that because I was there, they wanted to "cut off my head." Then when mess hit the fan, I was supposed to choose between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks to get out of Helgan alive. I was not about to trust my life in the hands of someone who wanted to chop my head off. I played both sides, and after the 2nd time, I will always go for the Stormcloaks.

I understand that a treaty came about between the Imperials and the Thalmor. But Skyrim did not belong to the Imperials. It belonged to the Nords, and was invaded by the Imperials, and then the Thalmor stepped in, which in turn lead to the ban of the worship of Talos, which caused the present Civil War. At the end of the first time playing, I was on the side of the Imperials, and did not like the way it ended. The second time, I was on the side of the Stormcloaks, and the leader of the Imperials, (I am bad with names, so forgive me), whined and said it was the fault of the Thalmor instead of accepting the blame himself, yet he was the one who made the pact with the Thalmor. Even though the Stormcloaks won, Ulfric did not step in as High King, but decided to the the people decide, which to me, was very noble.

So I picked the side of the Stormcloaks, and always will.

Hope that all made sense.

[Vouivre]

There's always been something about the whole storyline which had greatly struck me as I dunno. Maybe it's that Anglo-Saxon blood of mine(minus the italian bits) but it just seems like the Stormcloaks aside from Ulfrick (whom possibly was tortured by the thalmor and with magic his mind belt and broken to be a puppet of theirs. Since Empire is working WITH the Thalmor you see where i stand there) have a good idea going. Hammerfell with the Redguards, possibly the orcs as well.. may band together just to eliminate the Thalmor issue. Nords of Skyrim (basically greatly of viking and maybe somewhere Celtic influence) have always been a battle hardy people. Ysgrimor came leaving Atmora to Skyrim and was forced back by the elves after hundreds(or even thousands) were killed. Returning with the 500 Companions and went across Skyrim eradicating the elves and setting up the first capitol and empire of Skyrim. 500, this means 500 nords full fury possibly without using the voice went in and routed an entire province of elves. It is very possible for Nords to do so now, and with reguards and orcs? The Thalmor really aren't looking too good.

Thalmor are basically trying to assert themselves and more or less re-create the power the Ayleids had, and the Dwemer had... which is why you had that Agent in the Mage college of Winterhold wanting the power of the Eye of Magus. They're taking over through politics which works well, combined with a powerful army using magic and other underhand tactics. It was very possible todo. Now.. if the dark elves aren't being helped by the Thalmor this would eventually lead to Dunmer possibly helping as well.

Nords look after themselves as they have for thousands of years, they cannot trust elves still because of what had been done to them in years past. So racism is normal, and expected while Ulfrick is as bigoted as they come it seems he doesn't question one whom is both Dovahkiin but also the fact that someone is willing to fight for the cause regardless of race. Gender or race, if they all fight for the same cause not even the Thalmor can stand against it.. Ayleids fell because of a rebel uprising. So too can the Thalmor, they're afraid of the nords and attack on sight using magic and everything to try to weaken them. The empire has it's men stand down until they can no longer hold back.. conserve all the men you can. Stormcloaks have beserkers, on hair triggers. So to me I'll take stormcloaks or neither, unless given a better option, it's removing thalmore and the weak empire or nothing. Until the Empire can get on it's feet to rise against the thalmor, they're seen with contempt and to be removed as soon as possible.

As for the challenge of the high king? Many tribes will challenge their chief for the position.. Even in nature it's seen.. so there's nothing unusual about it. The former high king failed, miserably And now or the Queen would be next in line. Technically the Dragonborn should be put into the position of power. He defeated the dragons, instrumental in ending the civil war(regardless of side) among other feats.

[WillieSea]

The 'hero' in any 'game' never gets a position of power upon finishing the questline. Apparently game players do not want that.

(Is it what they call 'cheating'?)

And I agree, its traditional to challenge the ruler in the Nord culture. I never understood why game players had a problem with that. It was a challenge and Ulfric won. By rights he is now the ruler, but he wants the Yarls to decide who the ruler should be instead.

[Vouivre]

I agree on all parts there Will. In Dragon Quest 3 the hero could become king of a city, but later would place the old king so he could resume his old throne(old king liked to gamble.. so pawned the throne off constantly to his advisor so hecould gamble on monster battles in the arena). Here players "could" become high king(queen) or the head or whatever faction they choose if they so wished. But most of the time events(though usual railroad design) become head of that faction. Exception here is Civil war.. you choose a side, fight for it, and when it's over it's over. You go about your normal live... and being Dovahkiin your role is FAR more important... Than ruling a province or city... though I really wouldn't mind the option of "Settling down and founding a city" option.

[vometia]

I find the whole premise of the little island where the Thalmor come from being able to take over the huge landmass of Tamriel to be a bit far fetched. Their threat is small and would be short lived in the best case for them.

Invaders on the Tamriel continent would never last very long, because the entire population would soon revolt under their tyranical rule. History shows us this much.

Similar things have happened in the real world and with much smaller places than Summerset Isle (e.g. the British Empire); a few crumbling alliances can leave the way wide open for someone to come along and impose their own rule. Which is one reason I dislike Ulfric, who appears to be using the situation for personal gain rather than for the long-term security of Skyrim. That and I don't like him much as a person...

Edited December 28, 2012 by vometia