The Major Flaw In Skyrim (IMHO)

[Walrus]

If there is one thing I can't stand in games, it's things not making any sense at all. And since this is a Skyrim forum, guess which game I have a problem with?

 

Did you guess Oblivion AND Skyrim?

Then YAY! heres a cookie my fellow TES lover!

 

tl;dr Skyrim dungeons are bland and boring. It erks me.

 

Now imagine this for a second; Your a Dwemer lord, planning his city. 

Do you;

 

A) Make a city that Includes "houses" and shops, smithing areas and potion labs

 

B) Make a fortress that is straightforward, and includes general areas to make items, store items and house troops

 

C) Randomly dig into the ground with no plan or real propose

 

Ok, you can stop pretending now. So which did you pick? Are you making a city? Are you on the border and housing troops? Or are you insane?

 

To me, all of Skyrim's dungeons are the last option. They make no sense. Excluding all cave based dungeons (which I have other issues with), dungeons usually follow this format

 

1.Enter and go straight

2.Go from room to room, never any diverging paths

3.Kill all enemies and then boss

4.Collect loot and possible a th'um

5.Hit "secret" button/chain/lever to open "secret" door leading back to start/near start

6.Exit

 

Almost EVERY dungeon follows that pattern. Think again to the Dwemer ruins. Where did they all sleep? Where did they make weapons? Armour? Potions? Where did they research/make all of there steam equipment? All of their minions? 

 

All of the ruins just follow a simple linear path. Sure there are some rooms off to the side, but think about it, what was IN these rooms? NOTHING. All of them were just a lockpick sink (D&D players think gold sink) and a holding area for a semi-important item. 

When I first picked up Skyrim, I made a sneaking character. Wanted to try and steal some items instead of killing everyone. It's not possible due to one thing only. The quest structure is there. The skills are there. The ability is there. but the LEVEL DESIGN prevents it. Level design is everything.

i remember in Oblivion there were often two paths to get to the end, or at least a side tunnel to sneak passed enemies. Now some dungeons where designed to make you fight, but that's the point. They were DESIGNED. In Skyrim you can't sneak past enemies. They are placed at the end of a tunnel.

 

Now granted, with all sneak perks, Muffle, Invisibility, and going REAL slow, you could sneak past. But really? Is that fun?

 

Remember that quest in Oblivion where you had to deal with the mercenary leader? He was sick and needed a potion every night. You could either sneak in and switch the potion. OR you could run in and bash everyone over the head. Either way it was fun. There was enough stuff to hid behind that you could sneak. And straightforward enough to just run through. But there were SIDE rooms. Rooms with a point to NPCS but not to the story. It made it interesting, fun.

 

Skyrim is missing this in my opinion.

 

It is up to us, the modders, the fans, lovers of all things TES to fix this. One day, I plan on changing all the main quest dungeons. So more people can enjoy better dungeons.

 

tl;dr Skyrim dungeons are bland and boring. It erks me.

[Jac]

Bethesda is successful because they give the majority of their fans what they want that they can fit into a console's limited capabilities (compared to the PC).

[WillieSea]

Sadly, the console kiddies rule the way games are made now.

What makes me mad more than the lame and exercises in drudgery dungeons is the hand holding for every quest. There are no clues in the conversation anymore, its, go here, follow your map marker like a good little kiddy, then follow that map marker back to me. You 'take orders' without any independent thought anymore. Thus, my mods do not use quest markers and the players can complain all they want, but they feel more accomplishment when the quest is done when they have to do it the hard way.

[Gramblosh]

Well, the problem about the dungeons, as pointed out yesterday in shouty, is not restricted to Skyrim, it's a problem about all TES games.

Let's go back to Oblivion:

* Imperial Forts, we are in the heartland of the empire. The glorious Imperial Legion resides in the Imperial City (mainly the wall towers). ALL the imperial forts are destroyed. And the stuff that is left? None of the structures make really sense, they were designed as dungeons to fight through. Hallways and rooms that seem to have had no logical purpose. And why is most of it under ground? Compared to that Morrowinds Imperial Forts are rather logical, rooms had a purpose, they were designed as forts not as dungeons.

* Ayleid Ruins, were about the same. Long winding hallways, big rooms. Some seemed to have a purpose but looking at the over all structure nobody would build such a thing. Again they were designed as dungeons to place chests, barrels and traps not as a building where intelligent people used to live, work, study, reproduce themselves, whatsoever. And, btw, how did that giant ogre pass all those deadly traps to get in their and how does he get out to get some food?

Another few years back in Morrowind:

* The Dwemer Ruins, just the same way, you described about Skyrim. Sometimes you find at least a glimpse of logical structures but most is hallways and rooms that seem to have had no purpose. Sometimes really great as a dungeon but not as a logical structure people used to live in.

Good examples?

Yeah, in Morrowind you find a couple of caves that had something like a living area, tent like roofs, chairs, storage, bed rolls, hammocks. Logical structures. Sure, they were designed as dungeons too but they were still designed functional, like something people would do when they live there.

--------------

Willie is right about the Quests (which are also not a problem of Skyrim alone, already started back in the days of Oblivion). But the console itself is not the problem. The console is just the interface between the game and the player. I think players have changed. Nobody wants to take the time for anything. Everything has to be fast. Be it playing or even modding. I am doing a lot of support in German boards, and there are so many guys (mainly guys) that want everything, the coolest modded game, the strongest character ever but the are not willing (or maybe able) to understand basic mechanisms of a game or how a mod works. Now imagine a quest structure like in Morrowind, unless you know where to go, it sometimes takes a long time to find something (and often even knowing doesn't make it much better to find). You have blockers that simply don't let you get a quest until you haven't reached a certain level. They would go crazy. Taking time, relaxing, trying and failing, learning, these aspects are not part of their gaming philosophy.

[BigBossBalrog]

Sadly, the console kiddies rule the way games are made now.

What makes me mad more than the lame and exercises in drudgery dungeons is the hand holding for every quest. There are no clues in the conversation anymore, its, go here, follow your map marker like a good little kiddy, then follow that map marker back to me. You 'take orders' without any independent thought anymore. Thus, my mods do not use quest markers and the players can complain all they want, but they feel more accomplishment when the quest is done when they have to do it the hard way.

Console kiddies? Are you serious?

So just because we play console were "Kiddies" and everything is automatically are fault?

[Walrus]

I focus on Skyrim mostly because that's the game I remember the most. I have never played Morrowind. 

Do you guys remember Golden Eye for the N64? All of the levels were designed and made before they even made the whole story. That's why some rooms do nothing. They are just storage rooms. That's what TES needs.

I think the forts just annoy everyone. I mean, destroyed forts, all occupied by bandits/skeles and built into the ground not up? That makes no sense in Tameral. Maybe a few in Skyrim and a few scattered on the farther reaches  of Cyrodil. But in the middle? NO. Why did the orcs not take any over?

 

But at the same time there is alot of dungeons in Skyrim. I imagine someone got very bored with making them in the CK and then filling them. And I doubt the guy with the control over the money really cared if the dungeons and forts made sense. I really think they should turn to the community for the next game. Let us design the levels, make the lore, and fill them. And then give a free copy of the game to all the Creators they pick. I for one would design a medium sized dungeon for that.

 

Maybe when Rider gets the Level design up we can compare all the pros and cons to the TES dungeon design ideas.

[Tigersong]

'S true, there has been a lot less attention to detail. Look at the faction quests for instance. Where in Morrowind you had to travel the land and earn your way through the ranks, now you do a couple of local quests and voila, you're head of the faction. (I'm looking at you, College of Winterhold.)

 

@ Walrus- nice. While we're at it, let's have players contribute voice acting and singing.

 

@ Gram- heaven forbid they should actually take time to read dialog in order to find out their objective! Which is too bad, since characters could say much more without the need to record every line.

 

On a side note, does anyone else misses the days of unique meshes for every race?

[WillieSea]

Console kiddies? Are you serious?

So just because we play console were "Kiddies" and everything is automatically are fault?

Yes I am serious. Consoles have brought a whole new element of quick gameplay and instant gratification game play, and hand holding during the entire game. There are barely any puzzles or actual 'quests' anymore such as when PC gaming ruled the market. You did read the context of my post and not just skim it?

For example, in Morrowind (A game made for the PC), to play the main quest would take weeks. In Oblivion, and Skyrim (made for the consoles), it can be finished in a day or two. And yes, all games are now targeted for the consoles.

[Gramblosh]

I agree with you that the existence of the consoles is a problem and the development of games for the consoles or even with console ports in mind is a drawback for the PC gaming community. (Which is, for sure, not the problem of the console gamers.)

But there are different types of gamers on all platforms. Just because somebody is using a PC for gaming it doesn't automatically mean that he is a better gamer than another one who is playing on an xbox or ps3. Whatever good (or bad) gamer means. Let's say, there is a certain type of gamers that is easier to please and, subsequently, cheaper. So, developers follow them.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Gramblosh

[dkr87]

I agree.

 

I've wondered about the guidelines that the designers had to follow when they were developing the game, with regards to the dungeons. They bragged about how they multiple people working on dungeons/caves versus 1 or 2 guys for Oblivion, which would..or should...have led to a a diverse set of dungeon raids.

 

ironically, they all ended up behaving the same, in terms of gameplay, as you point out. There were a few that had some majestic looking sky lights with sun rays pouring down onto a small waterfall, yea...there were a few screenshot moments like that...but you're right, every dungeon and cave had the same textures and relatively the same gameplay.

 

As I said initially, i wonder if they had to follow not a ruleset, but a loose guideline on designing these caves/dungeons. Perhaps they had a design guideline to maintain playability for consoles...I dont know. I just find it weird that an entire TEAM of designers ended up designing...basically the same thing. There HAD to have been a universal guideline or design plan in which they had to base their ideas.

 

Just a thought

Dustin

[HeyYou]

Given some of the dungeons in Blackreach..... I don't think it was size constraints, or anything of that nature that gave us less than stellar gaming experiences in the rest.... Remember daggerfall? The dungeons were randomly generated when the game was installed. They were HUGE. There were multiple paths, for the most part, but, it was incredibly easy to get lost... The 3D map (which I still miss) helped some.... but, as graphics weren't the best back then.... still made navigating dungeons extremely challenging. Beth actually listened to the complaints about that, and then SERIOUSLY overcompensated in Morrowind. A lot like level scaling in Oblivion.....

 

But, in any event, todays games, developed on, and for, consoles, pretty much assures nothing is going to change. There aren't any PC exclusive game companies any more. They are all about the money, and maximizing sales. Which means games that appeal to the casual gamer. Little depth, more action than role playing, and simple story lines.

[AnaCostia]

I perfectly agree about the linearity, the famous end chain which opens the secret passage is an obvious cliché for playability and I find it is a great idea for it and casual players, less for realism. But on the other side I don't feel that complete absence on dwemer ruins. The first example that comes in my mind is where I just went few days ago, the place where you kill (Antoine?) for Muiri's quest. It has a couple of sneaky thief alternatives, one just when you enter (you could go straight across the flames and picklock the door) and one before Antoine's room (you can surround them if you picklock the side door). Following the other path, you pass through some dwemer living quartiers, some beds, a kitchen... The same Blackreach has its own structure, which I personally don't understand but I feel the way the separated cells are structured and named has some kind of meaning.

In the end I still think they found a nice compromise between playabilty and attention to details. It's almost the same for how much linear are the quests too, but still, sometimes they introduce those little unmarked details that are really nice in my opinion (i.e. the Winterhold murder quest line and its unmarked variant, the story of Sapphire in Dragonborn, etc.). Surely the best details could come out with mods, where the modder can use his personal taste and increase them, make the things more realistic, but because he doesn't have a real meaning in finding what the majority of fans could appreciate as stated in the second post. And this just makes me think... Thank you Bethesda that gave us all the CK

[SpectralDragon]

I really disagree that it is the fault of consoles. I have played some mmo's where people act exactly the same as described here: absolutely everything needs to be done at the snap of a finger or people would rage. This started even in the days of diablo 2. (BTW, I am primarily a console gamer.)

 

Rather than blame the consoles, I blame the small (but rather loud!) group that complains things aren't quick or easy enough. If you think about it, the sqeeky wheel gets the grease, right?

 

Another consideration is that things are not as quick to be made as back then: it takes a lot more time to get the much more resource-intensive aspects of the game done, which means less time for building those large dungeons and less brainpower put into gameplay.

 

A final point is that companies are after a quick buck anymore, so they are using what they know sells and ditching the rest.

[Calfurious]

1. Most AAA games nowadays need be on as many platforms as possible or have a really nice exclusive deal for a console. The fact of the matter is that AAA games cost a whole lot of money then they used too and companies are trying to make as much profit as possible.

 

2. Even if Skyrim was made for PC, there's no guarantee that Bethesda would of changed their dungeon or quest layout. They probably made dungeons that linear and 'unrealistic' for gameplay purposes and time constraints. It's also possible they were partly motivated by their own artistic tastes instead of aiming for straight up realism. When it comes to Dwemer, Nordic, and Ayleid ruins, you need to apply a bit of imagination and scale theory. I always figured I was only exploring part of the dungeon/ruined city instead of the entire area.

 

3. This isn't unique to Skyrim. Oblivion's dungeons were by far worse (I haven't played Morrowind so I don't know how they did it for that game). Here's a couple of reasons why Oblivion's dungeon design was worse then Skyrim's:

 

A) You're in the heartland of Cyrodill, the seat of the Empire's power, yet every fort you run into is occupied by bandits. At least in Skyrim when the civil war questline begins, many of the forts begin getting occupied by militiary forces. But even before then, exploring the forts you could see the dead remains of imperial or stormcloak soldiers who were killed by the bandits/warlocks who took the fort. You could tell that there was a militiary presence in this fort.

 

B) On that note, Oblivion lacked what I like to call "Dungeon storyline". Enemies were just placed in dungeons, caves, and ruins without any thought as to why they were there. Why are their imps in an Ayleid ruin? Why are their goblinls in this fort? Why are their trolls in this fort? In Skyrim, you often could find notes or hear dialogue as to why certain bandit groups or warlocks were located in an area. Why are bandits inside a Nordic ruin? Because their looking for some treasure, need a hideout, or sometimes even both. Why are warlocks in a fort? Because it's located on a road that travelers pass by and they can capture people for experiments. Not only that, but sometimes just simply exploring the ruins can tell you what happened. For example you can see the dead bodies of bandits in a nordic ruin got into a fight with the draugr located in there.

 

C) Oblivion had worse dungeon design. Pretty much all the caves and ruins looked like each other and there very little real variation. In Skyrim every Nordic ruin has different layout as to how it's constructed, there's more personality to them. Oblivion's dungeons looked like they were randomly generated. They weren't, it's just that only one person was completely in charge of Oblivion's dungeon designed as opposed to multiple people like in Skyrim's.

 

4. Now when it comes to hand holding in quest? I don't really mind that. I don't mind having a quest marker. BUT! I would like it if Skyrim's side quests felt more epic and were longer. I wish the quests had different options as to how I can complete them or more meaningfully alternate endings to them. That's probably my major criticism of Skyri'ms quest design.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Calfurious