Lich-Specific Lore Help

[jamochawoke]

Hello all! I am here once again to ask help with lore.

 

I am currently writing a journal (well since it'd be so long the player just finds various entries for important events) for Mannimarco. The book that bears his name mentions him as the first lich to walk the earth after using dark magics, sacrifices, and Akaviri poisons and other various and sundry items to perform the ritual.

 

However, Mannimarco is a contemporary of Vanus Galerion who founded the Mage's Guild... and they both left the Psijic Order in the Second Era.

 

The Dragon Priests in Skyrim are pretty much exactly liches, although they seem to be animated by dragon magic (sort of, it's really unclear why they and the draugr are still around). The dragon cult was wiped out in the First Era.

 

Then you have the Ayleid lich-kings and the lich sorcerors that haunt the Ayleid ruins. The Ayleid kingdoms were deposed and dispersed in the First Era as well.

 

So that's one clear and one sort of almost not clear account of lichdom before Mannimarco.

 

Then you have some references to some liches in Yokuda (I haven't tracked them down yet but heard about). The Redguards invaded Volunfell (now Hammerfell) in the First Era. So these stories also predate Mannimarco.

 

What gives? I know that when you have lore as vast and complex and being written by different writers (don't even get me started on ESO lore, that's an absurd mess lol) you end up with inconsistencies... but I need some at least semi-solid answers here if I'm going to add an in-game journal that I want to be taken seriously. Believe me, I will be taking creative license, but I don't want to stray outside the lore so as to make it a bizarre juxtaposition. I want it to be seamless.

 

 

*** I am thinking in one journal entry Mannimarco will have trekked to some of the Ayleid ruins. He attempts to talk to the Ayleid lich-king there after wrecking his servants with necromantic magic. The lich-king, angered at this trespass on his realm, refuses to tell him how they attained lichdom except that they bought it at great price to their souls (giving him ideas on how to go about it) they fight, and Mannimarco learns from this (somehow no details yet) how to summon and bind the Ayleid liches using necromantic conjuration.

 

*** Another set of journal entries I am having confusion on is the entire mess with the Underking from Daggerfall. Apparently Mannimarco was in the Illiac Bay region during this 4th era game and waging a shadow war with the Underking (which is how he both became the Necromancer's Moon and also did not due to the Warp in the West) with both sides using armies of the undead against each other. Is the Underking a lich? Why why/not? His heart was taken to power the Numidium, but is he a lich or merely a vengeful revenant? In the Sancre Tor quest in Oblivion it is said he cursed Sancre Tor with his power of corruption.

 

So...?

[DaMage]

So the warp in the west is some of the most confusing lore, so I'm going to stay away from that one simply because I don't fully understand it. I will say the the underking is not a lich, even though he does display lich-like quality....there is a lot more going on there.

 

It could be that Mannimarco was the first mage to gain lichdom in that way, whereas the dragon priests were given it through the dragobs. It could also be the Ayleids received their lichdom via divine power or some other form of magic that did not involve necromancy and sacrifice.

 

Thats just my take on it, I never put the two together like you describe, and it does seem the Aylieds had liches before Mannimarco because "the first lich".

[jamochawoke]

Yeah the ayleids are what confuse me the most.

 

I can understand how the Dragon Priests were reanimated through a draconic curse like the draugr. Even though there's no mention of the curse (it's mostly just hearsay) in books... awaiting the time to re-serve their dragon lords, always in limbo.

 

So that could make them not liches. Easily explainable. But then you have the other first era perps: the ayleid sorceror kings, who most certainly ARE liches (it even says it in the name)!!!?!

 

But then again there was that one quest that mentioned the dragon priest needing his blood again to rise and that one ghost who is guarding his tomb so it doesn't happen, but eventually has you destroy him permanently.

 

So maybe I could leave the dragon priests out of it, or have Mannimarco try to uncover the riddle of their undeath only to be met by a slew of gibberish in Dov language he can't understand.

 

The Underking I can write off as being an extremely vengeful revenant form of undead like a mix of spectre and zombie who is animated by curse like the dragon priests.

 

Basically I'm trying to write in some hazy clues on his immortality and lichdom in the journal and how he came to be that way.

 

 

I've gone ahead and shot off a private message to Michael Kirkbride to see if he can answer some of it.... but I dunno if he'll ever get around to it.

Edited July 12, 2014 by jamochawoke

[SpectralDragon]

I believe mannimarco is the first to make himself a liche, not become one. All those other cases (save the aeylids not familair with how they got to where they are,) were created by another power or individual.

[jamochawoke]

O, but sung we have of Vanus Galerion many times before,
How cast he off the Psijics' chains, bringing magic to the land.
Throughout the years, he saw the touch of Mannimarco's hand,
Through Tamriel's deserts, forests, towns, mountains, and seas.
The dark grip stretching out, growing like some dread disease
By his dark Necromancers, collecting cursed artifacts of yore.

 

They brought to him these tools, mad wizards and witches,
And brought blood-tainted herbs and oils to his cave of sin,
Sweet Akaviri poison, dust from saints, sheafs of human skin,
Toadstools, roots, and much more cluttered his alchemical shelf,
Like a spider in his web, he sucked all their power into himself,
Mannimarco, Worm King, world's first of the undying liches.

 

Corruption on corruption, 'til the rot sunk to his very core,
Though he kept the name Mannimarco, his body and his mind
Were but a living, moving corpse as he left humanity behind.
The blood in his veins became instead a poison acid stew.
His power and his life increased as his fell collection grew .
Mightiest were these artifacts, long cursed since days of yore.

 

 

This is the problem I'm having. It's a poem about Mannimarco, but he and Galerion were second era. Ayleids were first era as well as mention of the Yokudan liches.

[HeyYou]

From UESP Wiki:

 

 

• He became the first lich (explaining his longevity, as he was approximately 1,130 years old by the beginning of the Oblivion Crisis).^[1] It is not specified if he was the first lich ever or the first humanoid to make the transformation. He lost his body and mind; he became a living, moving corpse. His blood became acid, and all manner of repulsive things happened to him.

I think this is just one of those things that gets muddied as time passes. Looking back on history, from various points (when the odd book was written) you inevitably get the bias/interpretations of the author. I doubt you are going to get a definitive answer on this, as Beth doesn't even seem to have one. (not the first time they have blown holes in their own lore either.)

[jamochawoke]

You're right. Hopefully I can get an answer from Michael Kirkbride, although it seems like his last social media account (his Tumblr) he hasn't logged in on in months... I'm just really trying to write this ancient weathered journal that the player can flip through. It has random entries, spells (in the form of bizarre graphics I'm making in Photoshop), alchemical recipes, notes on raising the dead, musings to himself, et cetera. It's a big flavor item the player finds in his cave after defeating him.

[HeyYou]

My take on it would be:

 

Go on the premise that Mani was the first self-created lich, and base your writings on that.

[jamochawoke]

Yeah you're right. Currently I have entries of him wandering Skyrim talking to the Dragon Priests to unravel their mysteries when he comes to continental Tamriel from Artaeum. He travels to Labyrinthian and awakens and speaks to Morokei who reveals to him the secret of the Draugr-Priest relationship and undead energies from the draconic curse and then chastises him with a litany of curses in the draconic tongue when he states he will try to unravel Hevnoraak's rituals. Upon travelling to Valthume where Hevnoraak is sealed he is unable to procure the key to the dragon seal and struggles with the ghost of Valdar but is able to subdue him and get clues of his ritual of blood which he feels is all he can get since Hevnoraak never accomplished lichdom.

 

From there I will have him travel to Cyrodiil to dig up the ancient ayleid tablets concerning necromancy and the rituals the elven sorcerers used to become liches which I will have written as a pact with the Ideal Masters where they sacrificed a great many human slaves to achieve it.

 

Having had contact with the Ideal Masters before he knows the price they would extract from him and instead chooses to consort with some of the Daedric Princes on their summoning days trying to gain more knowledge until Molag Bal gives him a clue to finding the Crimson Book of Skulls which gives him the clues he needs to begin his adventure into self-styled lichdom and passing the knowledge on to his acolytes.

Edited August 1, 2014 by jamochawoke

[HeyYou]

That should work. Sounds like you have an excellent handle on things.