Witchking_of_Angmar

Roleplayer's Off Topic Thread #40

623 posts in this topic
56 minutes ago, The_Good_Doctor said:

The mystery is still there. Nobody says that the "practical" explanations for gods are correct, just that they're possible. It's also possible that R'hllor is a real entity. 

 

That's what I think too. Years of bonding has made them more naturally cooperative with Valyrians than they are with Westerosi.

I guess. There's not much pointing to that though. I do think something's going on but the idea of an entity actively trying to help them out, rather than a passive force that maybe does "subconsciously" out of self defense perhaps against magic forces of frost doesn't seem likely.

For the record though, even if there were, I would prefer it if the passive thing was the real explanation.

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Just now, Celan said:

I think that's from the same interview I quoted.  They're not immune but that is not to say that in some cases they aren't resistant. 

I would be more open to this if there were any instances in the lore that they have displayed a resistance besides Dany's miracle. Every instance I can think of where Targaryens have played with fire in any context besides from the back of a dragon, they've managed to burn themselves alive. Even Dany received minor burns from Drogon in book five even though his fire missed her.

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Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

I guess. There's not much pointing to that though. I do think something's going on but the idea of an entity actively trying to help them out, rather than a passive force that maybe does "subconsciously" out of self defense perhaps against magic forces of frost doesn't seem likely.

For the record though, even if there were, I would prefer it if the passive thing was the real explanation.

The entire point is that we won't likely get a real explanation. GRRM has said that he treats the gods of his world like in real life, where we simply cannot prove it one way or another. It's why I don't think it really matters. All that matters is the results we can see, such as people coming back to life.  

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11 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Ah so there is more to the fire thing and the Targaryens than just one miracle/accident. Good, that was kinda ruining things for me even more with the show.

As for R'hllor, I don't disagree, in fact I said as much earlier on the last page about their gods in general, but even so, the impersonal force could still be tapped into I'd imagine, inadvertently to where it gives the impression that those who do are "favored". Basically I like for there to be more mystery to it rather than all the practical explanations being the obvious ones.

edit: rofl actually you quoted the post where I said that, my bad 

Whatever it is seems to be fairly random, as you see in the show. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. It could be that the fire priests are so far from the old magic that they botch the incantations.

And likewise with the Targaryens,  they are from a time and place when magic was stronger but it's been so weakened and corrupted by this time that they can't always produce. I think the disaster of Summerhall was Aegon trying to do what Dany did but it went horribly wrong in his case. 

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Just now, Celan said:

I think the disaster of Summerhall was Aegon trying to do what Dany did but it went horribly wrong in his case. 

This is my theory as well. It's why I really hope GRRM continues Dunk and Egg's stories, even though the ending will be tragic.

Maybe the world wasn't ready yet when Egg tried. We know that around the time of the books, magic is making a comeback. We see it with the Red Priests, magical kings' blood, warlocks, and even street magicians.

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Also the show has waaay exaggerated Bran's power by making him all seeing. He's supposed to only see or hear what the heart trees have seen or heard.

So, this is what northerners call the old gods- a magic that's in the world as a force which people have been able to tap into.  I assume R'hllor is similar. 

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Just now, Celan said:

Also the show has waaay exaggerated Bran's power by making him all seeing. He's supposed to only see or hear what the heart trees have seen or heard.

So, this is what northerners call the old gods- a magic that's in the world as a force which people have been able to tap into.  I assume R'hllor is similar. 

I like the theory that the Greenseers of old who merged with trees like the Three Eyed Raven did are what the First Men mistook for the Old Gods. Westeros used to have Weirwood trees all over the place, so they basically would've been omniscient. This would mean that Bran is in the process of becoming an Old God himself.

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Admittedly the three eyed raven thing is too much, but again I'm not saying that I want there to even be a definite answer. I just think that, in the case of the show anyway, there ain't much to balance it out so that there is the question of "what if". It's pretty clear that in the end it doesn't matter, and that it's more than likely just a natural occurrence that they chalk up to being gods, which for me doesn't add much mystery or wonder since it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Any event or special occurrence thus far is better explained by the more practical reasonings Doc has been giving, in my opinion. Which is fine and dandy, but there's no need for the illusion if it's not a very good one. From anywhere but the eyes of the story's characters.

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Reminds me of the Inquisition lore debates. The human supporters were usually hardcore Maker supporters that beyond all reasoning tried to attribute everything to the Maker, even when the game pretty much said "Nah, it was Solas."

I mean, there was still the fact that you by chance were in the perfect place to stop Cornflakes, but that's about it. It's not enough to start calling you "Herald of Andraste", hence why you don't tell people about that, or you do and they ignore it because they want to believe despite the evidence. Realistic true, but there's no need to pretend like the developers really want that to take any role in the story other than to add a layer of realism to their fantasy. Perfectly fine, but no reason to pretend like it's anything but.

And I'm not against it either. Guess I wish occasionally people could take the more TES approach once in a while. True wonder rather than basic story element.

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20 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Any event or special occurrence thus far is better explained by the more practical reasonings Doc has been giving, in my opinion. Which is fine and dandy, but there's no need for the illusion if it's not a very good one. From anywhere but the eyes of the story's characters.

But at the end of the day, those are just theories. We don't know that they are true and there is still a lot of mystery to it. In fact, I would think that in R'hllor's case there's a lot more pointing to a god's work than otherwise. Everything involving the Red God (or what people think is the RG) could be interpreted as happening for a reason, or being part of a plan. The flames told Melisandre that Stannis was Azor Ahai, which led her to the Wall and put her exactly where she needed to be in time to save Jon, which she didn't even think would work but did specifically for him, who is probably going to end up a major hero of the story's end. Same goes for most other instances of R'hllor-related magic. It seems to be working toward the goal of besting the Long Night, rather than just be a happenstance force of nature that people are getting lucky with. 

Even Beric seemingly has a part to play. In the books he already has served a potentially important role that justifies his resurrection. In the show, he seems to be set up to do something that could be even bigger.

Edited by The_Good_Doctor
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We're obviously not going to have a giant flaming god step down and announce his existence like Akatosh, but there is just as much possibility that he's there as there is that he isn't. I don't think the story strongly favors either possibility.

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The  existence of whatever it is, yes that's pretty clear. And Lol  I wouldn't even want something that clear in the elder scrolls.  The fact that we have no idea whether Lorkhan  is good, bad, or  in between or just a natural force that got personified by mortals power of belief is the magic of TES.

And that's what I'm ultimately talking about.

 But yes, I suppose, resurrection and visions is kinda hard to truly disprove with  A practical explanation.

 And I guess the whole point Of  a practical explanation is it is more believable

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Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

The  existence of whatever it is, yes that's pretty clear. And Lol  I wouldn't even want something that clear in the elder scrolls.  The fact that we have no idea whether Lorkhan  is good, bad, or  in between or just a natural force that got personified by mortals power of belief is the magic of TES.

I don't see how this differs at all from ASoIaF to be honest. The only difference being that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lorkhan and co. are real in TES. If any of the ones in ASoIaF are real, we don't know if they're good, bad, sentient, etc. either. We just know what their followers think, which isn't totally reliable.

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7 minutes ago, The_Good_Doctor said:

I don't see how this differs at all from ASoIaF to be honest. The only difference being that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lorkhan and co. are real in TES. If any of the ones in ASoIaF are real, we don't know if they're good, bad, sentient, etc. either. We just know what their followers think, which isn't totally reliable.

The  The difference is in my opinion there's more pointing to the practical! Then the spectacular. 

Which is where our opinions differ I suppose. 

 Of course, they're being a force of magic that you can tap into to resurrect people is an exactly practical. I'm talking about the consciousness of it. 

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in elder scrolls  it doesn't much matter if the gods were conscious or not before because  they were later given consciousness arguably .

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Rofl I don't know why Siri put an exclamation mark next to practical but that wasn't intentional.

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Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

The  The difference is in my opinion there's more pointing to the practical! Then the spectacular. 

Which is where our opinions differ I suppose. 

Yeah, it is. Even the practical stuff is just really well thought out fan theories that few or no characters in the books or show have ever suggested to be true, whereas the undeniable trail of events and forces pushing important characters to do important things to me is plenty of evidence that the spectacular is a strong possibility.

Hell, if I lived in the Riverlands, I would definitely follow R'hllor. It's hard to argue with results. It's also worth noting that the parts where Beric and Jon claim that there was "nothing" after death, were also show only. 

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Anyway, and this will be my last entry for a while since I'm at work now, I guess really what it boils down to is I just wish the Red God had a bigger role in the story. 

Not TES big, but big. Even I don't like gods taking too big a role in things which is why I involved Boethiah in Baldur's. Which is ironic since lol, Boethiah is a god but you get what I mean. 

Instead of it being the gods that he worships factually taking interest in him specifically, it's the Daedra that wants s bigger role in these great wars for her own glory.

Its also why I had Baldur try to burn off that mark. So far I've stated that it was Baldurs thu'um or to him maybe the gods that give him such affinity with fire. Now he wonders if it's really just Boethiah, and if it and him killing Ulfric didn't have something to do with her and his father slipping her teachings into his upbringing.

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1 minute ago, The_Good_Doctor said:

.

Hell, if I lived in the Riverlands, I would definitely follow R'hllor. It's hard to argue with results. It's also worth noting that the parts where Beric and Jon claim that there was "nothing" after death, were also show only. 

Ah ok, that's good. I didn't like that either.

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1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Anyway, and this will be my last entry for a while since I'm at work now, I guess really what it boils down to is I just wish the Red God had a bigger role in the story. 

Not TES big, but big. Even I don't like gods taking too big a role in things which is why I involved Boethiah in Baldur's. Which is ironic since lol, Boethiah is a god but you get what I mean. 

I honestly have a hard time imagining R'hllor having a bigger role short of outright confirming he exists. The flames and magic surrounding them are already responsible for moving Stannis and his entire army North and bringing back to life the guy who is most likely to be the biggest hero of the story. One of R'hllor's priestesses even assassinated the king who was most likely to win the Iron Throne before he could get there. It's even bigger in the books with all the prophesies, visions, and whatnot that the show tends to stray away from. But I think even without those, I think it has a major role.

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23 minutes ago, The_Good_Doctor said:

I honestly have a hard time imagining R'hllor having a bigger role short of outright confirming he exists. The flames and magic surrounding them are already responsible for moving Stannis and his entire army North and bringing back to life the guy who is most likely to be the biggest hero of the story. One of R'hllor's priestesses even assassinated the king who was most likely to win the Iron Throne before he could get there. It's even bigger in the books with all the prophesies, visions, and whatnot that the show tends to stray away from. But I think even without those, I think it has a major role.

Sounds like I just need to read the books then lol.

I love getting paid to do nothing.

I think. Bored out of my mind right now waiting for more parts to inspect.

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38 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Sounds like I just need to read the books then lol.

I love getting paid to do nothing.

I think. Bored out of my mind right now waiting for more parts to inspect.

Better than doing shit the whole time if you ask me

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33 minutes ago, CenturionAquilarius said:

Better than doing shit the whole time if you ask me

Amen. Unless you've got a job where you get more for what you put in, boredom on the clock is the best kind of boredom.

Also @ColonelKillaBee could you lock this thread when you get the chance?

Edited by The_Good_Doctor
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