Experiences/advice for large scale mods

[ResolveThatChord]

So for those of you who've worked as part of a team for a hobby project, do you have any advice or valuable/interesting experiences to share?

I'm sure nearly all of us have at some point felt the desire to create a large scale mod. Creating a story in The Elder Scrolls' style - an open world full of rich and vibrant detail, for people to explore and lose themselves in, is an incredible and wonderful possibility for those who have a story to tell and a world to show.

I also think that a lot of large scale mods have been planned or even begun, only to crumble under the daunting amount of work.

With the release of Skyrim, we'll all have a fresh slate and a brand new engine with exciting new possibilities, not to mention a lot of new and creative people being introduced to The Elder Scrolls and modding.

I expect that a lot of people will want to tell their stories with the Creation engine, and it would be a tragedy if we never get to see them because they all made the same mistakes. It's my hope that the modding community will grow and help smooth the entry of many prospective modders, so with that attitude in mind: What advice can you give to help these things happen?

What should we know about project organisation, recruiting members, staying positive, or anything else that needs to be known?

If you've worked on a project, modding or otherwise, successful or unsuccessful, what did you learn that could help others succeed?

[Lady_Nerevar]

Best advice I can give: think thrice, and then don't do it

[ResolveThatChord]

Best advice I can give: think thrice, and then don't do it

See, I think that's the worst advice you can give. Great things are worth doing. As for me, I'd say it's not enough to stand on the sidelines and passively watch as people with passion make great mods, and movies, and music, and everything that enriches lives and the world. I've got to get in on that, and I hope you do too.

[Antiscamp]

I am working on a large-scale project all on my own and I've gotten very far in just seven months, and I'm having the time of my life with it. People have been coming up to me and asking if they can "join the team", but I've declined them all, since this is my one-man-crusade. I don't really have any advice for other modders to get together grand projects. In my case, I've been modding when I've felt like it and when I've found the fun in it. Otherwise, I've been playing other games for a while only to return to my mod later on. I've put a lot of time into my mod. I wonder what I could have done if I've started the mod two years ago, but now I have Skyrim's release date as an overall deadline to follow...

Oh. an overall good tip for beginners. Don't start creating larger than life cities with hundreds of houses. You'll end up with only exteriors and no content at all, since noone's going to be creating interiors and door markers for a hundred houses. Make sure everything has a meaning and a mission within the mod. That way you'll cut away the useless fluff that might look good on the surface, but never will be done or feel alive. This is a very common mistake I see people making when starting out with a great project of their own.

[ResolveThatChord]

Oh. an overall good tip for beginners. Don't start creating larger than life cities with hundreds of houses. You'll end up with only exteriors and no content at all, since noone's going to be creating interiors and door markers for a hundred houses. Make sure everything has a meaning and a mission within the mod. That way you'll cut away the useless fluff that might look good on the surface, but never will be done or feel alive. This is a very common mistake I see people making when starting out with a great project of their own.

Thanks Antiscamp, that's some sound advice. How do you go about making towns? Do you only add buildings as they become necessary for characters or gameplay?

[Lady_Nerevar]

See, I think that's the worst advice you can give. Great things are worth doing. As for me, I'd say it's not enough to stand on the sidelines and passively watch as people with passion make great mods, and movies, and music, and everything that enriches lives and the world. I've got to get in on that, and I hope you do too.

It was a joke, mostly (hence the ). The part that was not a joke was 7 years of experience with exactly the sorts of mods you're talking about.

The vast majority (I'm talking 95% here) of big mods never get done. People have cool ideas, and sometimes they get other people to agree that the ideas are cool, and once in a while they manage to do actual work. But, in the end, most are brought down by the fact that people don't realize how insane a province mod, TC, or similar mod is. I suppose I should give actual advice.

1) Know exactly what you're doing. Write a design document, or at least a detailed outline of your mod and everything in it. You can't just say "I'm going to make Highrock," you need to know the sorts of people who inhabit Daggerfall before you ever set foot in the CS. Make these plans available for people to see.

2) Make a detailed plan of action. What are you modding first? Who is modding what? Prioritize, cater to your team's skills.

3) Never rely on others to do your work. If you really want a mod to get done, you have to be willing and able to do it yourself. If you're working in a team, plan on the fact that people are going to disappear. Establish some sort of procedure for disappearances so you don't loose all their work.

4) Be realistic. If you know nothing about modeling, you probably shouldn't plan to make a mod that features thousands of new models. Even if you have a modeler on staff now, he may be gone tomorrow.

5) Don't expect help, at least not at first (and probably not later, either). There are hundreds of people with cool ideas, and most of their ideas get nowhere. You need to convince people that yours isn't just another dead project in the making, and that takes time and effort.

6) Be prepared for long hours and frustration. I like to joke that I've spent more time fixing Hammerfell than I have making it, but its absolutely true. I've gone through 400+ cells by hand to delete a grass texture or two. I've had to remove 800+ flowers erroneously generated by the region editor. Tamriel Rebuilt (which I led and modded for for years) has redone all its landmass thrice over, discarded more work than most mods ever produce.

7) Establish some sort of team hierarchy, make sure everyone knows what they are responsible for, who to ask for help, etc. Make sure you have a way to communicate, discuss ideas, and share work.

8) Make sure you really, really, really want to do it.

[Johnn123]

The best advice I can give you is be prepared to do alot of work. If your going to make a team its best to have a lot done before asking for help, and even then I wouldnt expect much if any.

[ResolveThatChord]

Thanks, John. That is what I expected. I can't imagine how they got Nehrim together. I'd love to be a part of something like that.

Lady Nerevar:

Woah. That was you? Tamriel Rebuilt is incredible! Telvannis captured the sense of awe and discovery of Morrowind, and doubled its potency. That mod changed the context of Vvardenfell so much that everything felt new and wonderful. This is exactly why I consider this to be worthwhile.

Also, wow. TR is crazy ambitious.

Sorry for coming across as having a broom up my arse in regards to your first comment. Even though it was joking, I misread the joke. Too many people have the attitude that... well how can I describe it? When I was in highschool, there was a student playing piano, practicing Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu. When she finished, I stood in awe or her accomplishment an skill, but a girl standing next to me said "wow, that is sad." As if to imply that all the hours of work and practice and frustration were a pathetic waste of time.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. As for your actual advice, it's great. It makes me wonder: Since this is a hobby and commitment is such a huge factor for success, do you think that planning a project of variable scope would be an effective way to see it completed?

By which I mean rather than immediately planning to tackle a large and ambitious idea, plan a relatively feasable idea that can grow or shrink in scope depending on how many people put in work. The modular RPG quest system would be ideal for this; rather than writing a script for a huge and epic quest, write a discrete chapter that ends with a sense of completion, but has room for expansion if expansion becomes feasable. Or in the case of worldspaces, start with a small worldspace that can work by itself, and add or subtract areas or dungeons as the situation changes.

Since everyone really just wants to do their own idea, a modular system would give less driven participants creative freedom of a particular, non essential part of the project; a quest, a house, a character.

You're clearly more down to earth about this than me, so please by all means rip the above idea to shreds. I'd like to get an idea of how this all really works.

[Lady_Nerevar]

Woah. That was you? Tamriel Rebuilt is incredible!

Much thanks, but I was only a part. TR is probably the biggest mod team ever, when you consider all the people who've left over the years. The vast majority of my work was behind the scenes (reviewing and moderation), though I do have a sizable exterior and a memorable interior in the upcoming Sacred East. I also did parts of Kemel-Ze. Other than that I'm not sure any of my physical work got into Telvannis or AS.

Sorry for coming across as having a broom up my arse in regards to your first comment.

Hah, no probs. 'Twas probably my fault anyways.

Since this is a hobby and commitment is such a huge factor for success, do you think that planning a project of variable scope would be an effective way to see it completed?

I'm not sure its ever been tried, but I think its a good idea. The usual recommendation is to start small to prove your skill and figure out your weaknesses, so it goes right along with that. In addition to the amount of content I would also modulate the type of content: for instance, start out using all vanilla and modder's resources, but add new models if a modeler shows up (rather than planing and waiting on models).

Episodic mods have been done a few times, but I've heard that they get poorer downloads (due to being 'incomplete' or something). A few people have tried creating a landmass and leaving it for others to populate - this usually doesn't work out at all, since its simpler to stick to Cyrodiil's worldspace and there is no real motivation for modding on the new land. Only time that sort of thing works is when the land is already compelling and to a point complete, like Elsweyr: Anequina or TR.

[Vouivre]

I can speak from semi personal experience as I'm doing perhaps the most insane thing I could do. What I am doing is a massive project with a lot of vision behind it. With this I am stretching my level of comfort by diving in and learning as I go. This said I have some tips that's made my life reasonably easier.

1. Research- Properly research what you want to do. Has anyone done it? If so was it successful and why was it. Same for failures. You need to look at what works and what doesn't. With that said look into resources and such that you can use. I have a folder probably going to exceed 10 gigs of just resources I used plan on using or will use in the future. Just for Oblivion alone. You will do a lot of research and brainstorming for the project believe me.

2. Preparation- Are you or is your team ready to tackle such a massive and daunting project? If do continue on. If not re-evaluate everything and then figure you will need to do 2-5 times more than what you originally planned.

3. Planning- This is vital, without proper planning, forsight and vision nothing will get done and be the wonderful things we've seen today. I quite literally have taken months to get past the planning phases for my worldspace. It is twice the size of cyrodiil and will be when I'm done as beautiful as I can make it, while keeping performance in mind. I have maps drawn out, regions roughly planned out in general areas. You will need to know what you'll need, how you're going to do things and so on. Remember to be fluid and flexible with everything. Ask others for input for the planning, if someone has a reasonable plan and vision for something hear them out. It might make what you're trying to do even better.

Those three things are probably the most important out of anything and probably scares away 80%+ modders from massive projects. I take on bigger projects because I want to challenge myself. Of course yes I'd love help but there's just some things I want to do alone.. Though the "solo"phase won't be much longer. By month's end I should be well on my way to wrapping up the "pain" work and working on making it well.. beautiful

[Rowan]

I will reinforce what Vouivre said about planning. It is absolutely vital to have a blueprint for your mod before you start the actual work. I have a folder dedicated to concept art that is packed with 200 images procured through numerous internet searches. I have all of my journal entries written out and the books as well. I have my worldspace mapped out to the vertex.

Depending on the nature of your mod, I think figuring out the story to the letter before starting is the most important thing you could do.

With bigger mods, unless you are some kind of modding god (like some people round here) you'll need a modding team. I would highly recommend that you have something tangible and inspiring to show people before trying to recruit... world space or videos are good... just to show that you are committed to the project and willing to do your own work. Try to learn as much about the different aspects of modding as possible - modeling, texturing, world building, voice acting... it's important that you can excel at at least one aspect of the technical aspect of modding in order to be a valuable asset to the team.

Once you have a team, by god cling to them like precious stones! Be the visionary and inspirational leader they need to stick with the project. Communication is absolutely key. As the lead, you need be available to coordinate people and send them off in the right directions. Keep track of the mod's progress where everybody can see it. Post screenshots and videos of new developed areas or items.

[ResolveThatChord]

Thank you Vouivre and Rowan. You've both got some very ambitious stuff in the works; I was wondering, if so much time is spent on planning, how you deal with entropy, staying inspired and motivated, that kind of thing?

[Vouivre]

A touch of insanity helps and it goes a long way. I've taken breaks more because of college work than because of anything else. Yes the tedium will build from time to time and sometimes you just don't feel like doing it. Tenacity is probably the one thing that keeps a lot of us going. Also keeping the vision and dream alive help immensely. Ultimately it comes down to the face that you kind of HAVE to be tenacious, hold onto the vision and dream and just overall keep working and keep motivated. Any little thing you achieve tell your team, show it off. It keeps morale high, nothing kills more than lack of morale. This is true in the industry, if the team is lacking morale the project will die quickly. If morale is high and everyone remains motivated then keep on going with it. The time will go by quickly and when you get to the "crunch time" when the final days are coming up before the great unveiling and release. You will be pushing hard especially if you set a date. If there's no date go by the "it's done when it's done."

[Rowan]

haha, that's indeed a great question Chord, and I can't give a good answer. Really, things seems to fall into place when they need to... I don't try to push things too hard. If I don't feel like working on it, I usually don't. This is true for my real life projects as well and boy are there a lot (school, learning japanese, writing screenplays, omg) ! Maybe it would benefit me to be more disciplined. :/

Edit: There was another thread almost just like this around here in one of the other forums. I had it bookmarked at one time because it had a lot of good info, but I lost all my bookmarks in the laptop move. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and can find it, please post a link!

Edit 2: I found the thread (I think):

Edited July 17, 2011 by Rowan

[DarkWarrior]

My pieces of advice:

-Don't plan your mod too big. Be realistic and plan for what you and/or your team is capable of handling; start small.

-Adhere to the KISS philosophy. KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid.

-Break a large project up into smaller, easier projects. Then set a timeline based on these smaller projects. Gantt charts are your best friend when it comes to timelines.

-Set goals. Keep the goals simple and obtainable. If you have a large project, then consider adopting a "grand strategic, strategic, and tactical" goal system.

-Remember that leading a team of volunteers is like herding cats. If you take good care of your team members, they will take care of you.

-Your team members come before your own interests. Treat them right; they don't have to be there.

-Never ask a team member to do what you are not willing to do. Be willing to be in the trench with your team.

-Don't forget your friends and your family, they come first and foremost.

EDIT: I apologize for the thread necromancy

Edited September 12, 2011 by DarkWarrior

[syscrusher]

A lot of great advice has been posted. I want to add to this thread from perhaps a unique perspective: I am the guy who is making most of the mistakes cited here, *on purpose*. Specifically, I am a new modder (about a year of experience) starting out on a large mod (full-sized town plus elaborate player home plus multilevel dungeon quest) as a first project. By conventional wisdom, this is arguably insane, and with good reason. In photography, the basic rules (like "don't shoot up-sun) are there for a reason, but some of the best serendipities happen when you break the rules. The key is to *know* that you are breaking the rules, and know *why* you chose to do so.

When it comes to modding, I felt a little more confident breaking the "start small" rule because I'm a computer engineer with extensive prior experience in CAD (computer aided design) and realtime programming. And I have community theatre audio, lighting, and set construction experience (which has turned out to be surprisingly relevant to the Construction Set). So while I had never used Blender, I had a couple of decades of experience with CAD tools that have many of the same concepts behind them. I had never written an Oblivion script, but I had written embedded software that had to run really fast on very tiny hardware.

Our mod is zooming along nicely. My wife and I are the primary modders, with her contributing creatively (writing and scenic design) and me doing the technical parts. We are way behind schedule for release -- I estimated 12 months overall, but it's going to be more like 16 to 18. On the other hand, I went into the project expecting slippage, and not caring all that much because *nobody's paying me to do this*. Most of all, both of us are having *fun*, a lot of it.

Some specific things I've learned, some the hard way and some actually the easy way (that is, figuring it out ahead of time):

1. 
   
   
2. As someone else has said, have a story before you start modding. Or, if what you want to build is just a pure dungeon crawl, be realistic about that up front. If you want a real quest, and you aren't a good writer, recruit one or two to your team before you start. (Speaking of writing, please grammar and spell check your dialog subtitles!)
   
3. This is a tedious, tedious process at times. Cluttering a house, done well, takes several hours. Landscaping a small town is many hours' work. Building AI packages can be frustrating as all-get-out. Be prepared for that, and if you're doing a large mod, the time for tedious detail will be multiplied in proportion to the size of your mod.
   
4. Modeling new objects (that is, in Blender, 3D Studio, etc.) is lots of fun, but takes a vast amount of time for anything nontrivial. I've spent most of my free time the past week building new Ayleid Ruin tiles for our mod. Fun, but a lot of very late nights. Plan accordingly.
   
5. The Construction Set will occasionally crash, and may occasionally (rarely) mangle your ESP file. The hard drive in your computer is neither immortal nor indestructible. Save early, save often, and have good backups. Make *rotating* backups, and archive snapshots, in case you have a corrupted file but don't notice it for a while. I once accidentally deleted a bunch of objects without realizing it, by bumping a key. Multi-generation backups are your friend, and I lost a couple hours' work rather than several weeks' worth.
   
6. All the "best practices" that apply to software development also apply to modding. Before you start, figure out how you want to organize your modding tools and environment, and have a process for managing installed resources, extracted BSA files, new models and textures, and text resources such as exported books.
   
7. As with traditional software development, and as someone else mentioned here, "stand on the shoulders of giants." Research what resources are available to save you time. In particular, pay attention to things like COBL and OBSE, that are already installed by a lot of people. If you can leverage that, you make your download smaller and simpler, you make your mod more interoperable with other mods, and your development time will be significantly shorter.
   
8. Debugging will take a lot longer than you think. The scripting language in Oblivion is primitive, even compared to many embedded platforms, and the debugging environment is pretty much just code-inspection and guesswork. Since AI packages and quest scripts run in parallel, you are essentially developing a complex multi-threaded application, absent any robust resource synchronization primitives (spinlocks, semaphores, mutex, etc.), and without any meaningful trace or breakpoint capability. In other words, build a lot of testing into your schedule, then double it. (This is not a slam on Bethesda...I understand they were working under tremendous machine resource constraints to make Oblivion run on the hardware available in 2006. The limitations are real, though, and need to be planned around, even if I understand that there are good reasons why it is so.)
   
9. Having said all that, working inside this limited environment can also be approached as an extra creative challenge, similar to the way some amateur radio operators deliberately go "QRP" (that is, running with minimal transmitter power) just for the extra challenge. Plan for the limitations, but embrace them as part of the creativity -- what can you do that's really cool, and nobody else has figured out how to do before? Push the envelope, if you're able!
   
10. Embrace the community, especially here on TESA. No, I'm not just being patronizing. This is a really warm, welcoming community here on TESA, and they've been amazingly supportive of our learning process. Give something back by sharing as much of your work as possible as resources, when you're ready to release.
    
11. If you're going to do a big mod as your first mod, go into it with managed expectations. You're going to spend a vast number of hours creating something that probably only a few people will ever see or appreciate. Do it for the love of the creative process, not for the end result and certainly not for public acclaim. In Open Source software development, we use the expression "scratch your own itch." Make the mode that *you* want to play and which you will enjoy creating, and then share it with others. If ten thousand people download it and love it, and you get 100 endorsements the first day, great. If three people download it, and two of them don't like it, then it's still okay because you had fun building it. As I said at the top: Starting out with a large mod is breaking all the rules of common sense. If you do it, great, but make it a careful, well-informed decision and not an accident.
    

I can't over-emphasize #10. My wife and I are working our tails off building our mod, and we're a year into the project and still months from release -- and this is *fine* with us, because every time we work together on it, we are excited and enthusiastic and having a great time creating something together. Our friends who are volunteering as voice actors have seen screen shots and are excited, too. We've done some preliminary audio recording, and people had a great time trying to be Argonians and Orcs and such. We could throw it all away, never upload anything, and it is still a net win because we've all had a good time. Isn't that what games are all about?

Oh, and I've learned how to use Blender and Audacity along the way. I'm still somewhere between "beginner" and "intermediate" in Blender, even with two decades of CAD background. It's a *big* piece of software. On the other hand, my company now says we have a customer who'd like to pay me to do some Blender work on the clock! So I've learned an employable skill along with having fun. Nothing wrong with that!

Once again, I wrote this not to speak from vast experience -- which I emphatically do NOT have -- but rather because I, like you, decided to jump in with both feet as a raw beginner. I have no regrets at doing so, and I hope that the above will combine with what the veterans have shared, and will help you decide how to eat this elephant.

Syscrusher