Newbie Questions for my first Mod (big & complex)

[Rhian]

Greetings everyone,

 

I am currently working on a Mod which turned out to become very complex in the end.

I know I know... I should start small. But that mod is nothing I want to do overnight (well, I want to, but know better and won't try)

and it contains all I need to learn how to Mod ^^ in short - learning the hard way right on the project.

 

And, since I do not want to start over and over again because I messed up my esp file... I have a few basic questions in the hope to avoid severe mistakes. So it would be great if some of the more experienced Modders could share some of their insights. (I do not expect brain-feeding here how I do what  - just hope to get some pointers or suggestions. I prefer to look tutorials up myself and really learn how to use the CK.)

 

I certainly will make use of the "Tutorials" and look into the class room it's just that some of my questions or "ideas" never have been really adressed or "answered" before in the WWW.

 

So - if you have an pointers which Tutorial or Compendium might just be what I am looking for - that would be sweet and grand!

 

(Already started my Mod over twice  (two weeks/evenings of work) - because I messed up some sandboxes and NPCs in a way that it wasn't repairable without messing it up any further - but well, I count those mistakes toward experience)

 

I also noticed that my mod does weird crap with NPCs eyes, no matter which race.

As soon as I enter the cell/zone where the Mod is located - the eyes either turn invisible (depending which direction my NPC looks).

You see the eye sockets... as if you have taken out the eyes.

It's like - if the NPC looks north and I face him/her - the eyes are gone. Does he/she look south and I face them the eyes are there.

 

And I haven't changed the races (except that dremora can wear normal clothes and use two different Nord hair-styles additionally to their hair styles)

 

 

Another eye bug I noticed - the texture goes bonkers. Looks weird, as if using the wrong texture map or half of the texture becomes weirdly transparent. I even think I saw a slight whitish  "bee comb" pattern in the eyes where they went slightly transparent.

 

 

Important:

I want my Mod to be "compatible" with other mods that contain scripts...

 

For example the "Dance of Death" Mod, all Lover's Lab Mods basing on the Lover's Lab Framework, popular Follower Mods, Better Horses Mods, Marriage Mods and such... So even if someone uses SKSE, FNIS and any of the aforementioned Mods/Scripts they should be able to use my Mod and even have the "luxury" of having more fun with my Mod.

 

What is my Mod about:

I am currently working on a huge Daedric Shrine Mod (want to add some more Daedric Shrines - but for now I only start with one)

 

It consists of an outdoor cell/area in Tamriel - heavily modified by me.

Various custom NPCs (eventually also a custom race provided by a friend who wants to release it as Player Race.)

Various Custom Items

Tons of items and objects in general

Tons of Idles / Markers and if I can manage it - scripts and custom sandboxes, critter spawner...

And various interior cells connected by portals to one Main Hall

Many custom dialogues

And maybe maybe maybe - quests if I find out how that works

And some sort of "Summoning Day" Easter Egg and Summoning Goodie

Custom Factions (Friend & Foe - serving a daedric prince will make you an official enemy of the Vigil of Stendarr and Ebonarm)

 

 

 

Modding inside of the CK

So, are there any general "Dos and Don'ts" when starting a compex mod to make it work without crashing, lagging and messing up vanilla content?

 

1)

For example - how much modification/modding can one cell take without becoming laggy?

1. How many NPCs, Critters and how many Items, how many Idle markers, scripts?
    
2. Do scripts added to item properties (e.g. DefaultDisableHavocOnLoad) also slow down the cell? Or only markers/idles?
    
3. How much light sources and how to use them best (shadows, not shadows, FX or nomal) ? (I noticed that as soon as my Followers use torches, the vanilla zone already becomes laggy as hell - and I have a good Geforce 480 GTX... In my modded cells it became even worse.)
    
4. Stacking Sandboxes and Scripts in one NPC - is there a limit, can this cause lagg or crashes?
    
5. Limit of Sounds, Insect/Critter Spawners?

2)

I am desperately looking for a detailed Compendium or detailed List that contains all Idle Markers and Vanilla Scrips for Skyrim.

The Wiki does not really go that deep and detailed.

 

1. For what exactly is XYZ Script or IdleMarker meant? (Item, Animal, NPC, Action...)
    
2. What does XYZ Script or IdleMarker do? (not all really explain well what they exactly do - best example DefaultDisableHavocOnLoad sounds like - making an non-static item temporary static until the PC picks it up - well, doesn't work like that! It doesn't disable physics on that item - stuff doesn't remain in the air floating... or stuff like plates, platters, books or food go invisible when the script is used on it)
    
3. Which Idles and Scripts do not mix well, and which mix well (Compatibility and Rendudancy Check)
    
4. Also, I would love to know if there is a detailed List which contains all Factions and what they exactly mean - who is friend and who is foe - which factions are not compatible and which factions are needed for custom NPCs.

3)

NPC Dialogues & Step by Step Tutorials for bloody beginner

 

I am looking for five things regarding dialogues on Custom NPCs and existing NPCs. For 3 - 5 I haven't found any tutorials at all. Most tuts I found only dealt with "absolute" custom dialogues

 

1. Creating a custom NPC (or copying it off an existingt NPC as template) and adding/creating custom dialogue (not voiced in this case, unless there are existing ready to use resources for that)
    
2. Creating a custom NPC (or copying it off an existingt NPC as template) and cannibalzing vanilla dialogue scraps - the various voice types have many different lines in response to Player-Choices. Custom NPCs, if you are lucky, reply at least to your "Follow me" request but usually have not much more to say.
    
3. Using an existing NPC - for example Farkas or Lydia .Both use a shared voice type - but their dialogues lack. I would love to add existing ovanilla lines of their voice types as responses to their overall dialogues.
    
4. Making NPCs comment more often outside of dialogues (Idle Chatter?)  - creating some additional responses during combat, or when moving through the city, walking in on a dungeon/cave and all that. (I love Cicero so much for that - even if he is sometimes a bit toooooooo chatty ^^)
    
5. Maybe... if that is even possible - making NPCs able to chat and greet each other.

 

4)

Creating spell effects & Actions/Scripts for Static Items (Shrines, Portals and such)

 

1. I need to create various Portals for my Mod.

 

Each Portal is supposed to teleport the Player and his Followers into an "Interior" Cell and the Counter-Part Portal brings them always back to the Main-Hall Cell.

 

You could picture the "Linked" Portals like a Star... I have 9 Cells - which means I have 18 Teleporters.

One Teleporter is located at the Outside Cell in Tamriel - leads into an Interior Cell (Main Hall).

That Main Hall again has 9 Teleporters - 8 of those lead to other different interior cells - and one sends people back to Tamriel.

And in each of the 8 cells also there is a teleporter, leading back to the Main Hall. (Hope I did not explain it too complicated)

 

I haven't really found any reference to check on. I tried to check on the Teleporter for Sanguine's quest A Night To Remember. But can't find that one under "DA14"... or simply as Gate or Portal or Teleporter :-/

 

 

2. I intend to use "custom" meshes for my Mod (Statues and such) and those are supposed to become clickable.

It will either execute a spell or an "action" (like summoning something or NPCs that do/say something)

 

I think the last part (actions) will probably require some heavy scripting?

 

5) Creatures turned into NPCs with Dialogues

 

I want to bring in various non "humanoid" creatures - two Dragons, one mean Bunny, a cynical Horse and so on...

Also I want to bring in non-hostile Falmer, Dwemer Characters and Undeads (Skeletons, Mummies and such)

 

Is that even possible? Anything I need to keep in Mind besides changing/removing Factions?

 

Last Goat NPC I created was not "targetable" and couldn't have a dialogue (I made it unique and essential, added a voice type... did not work because I couldn't click the goat)

 

 

6) Creating Custom Meshes & Textures (I work with Carrara 8 Pro for 3D and Photoshop for the Textures)

I mostly will do simple models - props... maybe a weapon or two. (tried once to create a simple rose bush but NifSkope crashed when I imported it) Most of what I do, will get along with simple square textures (I hope - I suck at doing UV Maps)

 

Carrara 8 also allows me to create so called Shading Domains/Zones for an object - it's sort of a "UV Map" you define for the object/model directly so not a "template image". It even allows me to manipulate existing shading domains and take away or adding more to enhance the details.

1. Are there any polygon limits? How complex can a mesh be as long as I use triangle polys?
    
2. Can Skyrim CK handle "spline objects" or do I always have to turn them into Vertex Meshes?
    
3. Do the textures have to be DDS, or can they be jpgs or pngs?
    
4. What to do I need to do or keep in mind when doing crystals (transparency or at least faking it), and the shiny effect of metal or mirrors for an object?)
    
5. I want to create custom "animated" water planes - in various shapes (circles, triangles...) I haven't found any vanilla waterplane I could use for example for a round fountain or a round pool....

I most likely will need some help here with the UV Maps and Normal Maps... and maybe some help with NifSkope to join Mesh with Textures and adding shader effects.

 

I know there is an NVidea Plugin for Photoshop - but that one doesn't work with my PS version (CS4) crashes.

Any free alternative anyone can recommend?

 

Wow... loads of text for my first Mod

And yes, I also made my own List of what I will need for my Mod.

Question is - can I pack it all into one ESP... or do I have to make more ESPs? (And is it important to turn them into esms or are esp files ok?)

 

PS:

Could be that I cannot answer today, should someone have first hints and pointers for me (working all day and school in the evening).

Just you know, I am not being rude or so ;-)

Edited July 29, 2013 by Rhian

[Hanaisse]

Ah, that initial "I'm gonna make a mod!" enthusiasm. Those were the days. What I'm about to say is not in any way meant to discourage you. Just some friendly advice from a veteran.

Stop. Take a deep breath.

Running headlong into making a mod without first knowing what you're doing is a recipe for disaster. That enthusiasm will soon turn into frustration. The best advice I can give you right now is to put all your plans aside and take the classes in The Enclave on the CK Basics. Most of those questions will be answered by the expert knowledge of DarkRider as you work through each lesson. Once you have a better understanding of working in the CK, you'll feel more confident to plan out your mod and work on it on the side. You can even work on it as your final exam to the classes, in fact, it's encouraged to put your skills to the test.

Trying to learn 20 things at once is also going to overwhelm you sooner than you think. The CK, modeling, texturing, scripting, quest writing ... they are all areas covered separately in The Enclave (or available in the CK Wiki) that you can work on, with active support available. Take the time to do these things one at a time. I really can't stress this enough - take the time.

Work out your plans on paper (I have notebooks filled with ideas when I work on things). Try to cut down on the "grand ideas" of the all-inclusive first mod. It can be small, it can not include the fancy scripts, no one is going to judge you on that. After the classes and when you feel ready, work on small parts at a time. Look for resource mods to help you with different models of things, it's a great help rather than stress yourself trying to make everything. The tutorials section may also include information that may be of interest.

And by all means, if you don't know, ask. TESA is a teaching site and we're all here to help each other. Having said that, I'm not going to answer the questions above right now, it's way too much information to take in all at once.

Good luck.

[Rhian]

Enthusiasm it is, indeed - paired with the fierce tenacity of a grizzled badger ;-)

 

No worries. That project is meant to be step by step - first I start with the simple plain Lego Construction. Cell by Cell...

Since I have not much freetime... it's a project for the coming months. Only deadline I have to finish before my final exams begin coming year.

 

Writing down my "shopping" lists for what I need for my mod (and even writing stories or creating 3D Scenes) is a must for me - especially when I am at work and can't take my mind off an idea. Helps me to keep my mind focused.

 

Just two more newbie questions that are not really about Tutorials.

 

1) Since I am not certain what term/word to search for exactly) - marker/Idle & Sandbox compatibility. Is there anything that deals with compatibility and crossbreeding vanilla scripts/markler/idles? And if yes, under what category does that fall? Scripting? I know how to create my own marker, sandboxes and manipulate those... but nothing about compatibility.

 

2) Empty Eye Socket problem when modded cell has been entered. I searched the internet and only found one thread about it with a screenshot. But no one really had a decent explanation or solution. Some blame it on Antialising, some blame it on a bug connected to Invis Potions / Spells O_o

Well, turning down the AA didn't help. And it only happens when I am entering my modded Tamriel Cell which consists mainly of added items and a few added custom NPCs. When I leave the Cell all is OK, when I remove the Mod and enter the cell all is OK, too.

 

Does anyone know the reason of this weird bug and how to avoid it when doing my Mod? It must be something I added or "changed"... (graphic wise I didn't change anything... especially not eyes.)

Edited July 30, 2013 by Rhian

[_echo]

For #1, it really is dependant on the individual's system. The more the game has to load, the more potential for lag there will be, as such, the more powerful the person's computer, the more it can handle before starting to show signs of overload.

 

General rule is to keep it as simple as possible. Do you REALLY need every light source to cast dynamic shadows? Probably not. Do you NEED to cover everything in ivy and flora? Again, probably not. Keep things simple and to the point and cut where you can. Havoked clutter is another biggie, as they need to invoke the physics engine. The more physics the game needs to process, the more potential for lag. Same with scripts. The more you have running, the more CPU time is needed, thus, like a parrot, the more potential for lag.

 

 

That said, you might look into render boxes. (Is that their technical name?) Basically they are boxes you use to encase parts of your interior levels and are connected via "portals" (Don't worry, no loading screens) This way the game only renders (though still loads) what is visible inside the boxes. There is a an official Bethesda tutorial for this on Youtube.

Also something to remember. Light sources are heavy on the rendering, and there is a hard limit of 4 omni lights (No shadows) and 3 shadow casting lights. If there is more then that on screen (Even if they are behind objects and you aren't using render boxes, they will start to turn on and/or off.

[Mysterious Mr. Bear]

Modding enthusiasm indeed!! Sounds like a hefty project you have planned.

 

My very first post on the Bethesda Forums site was me announcing to the community I was going to create a mod called "Oblivion 2". It would seamlessly link together all the big mods for Oblivion in one big story and include various "fun" mods by fitting them into the lore, I would organise voice talent to voice them all and handpick graphical mods to get the feel right, then assemble a massive soundtrack from all the best community submissions. I would then put it on  multiple installation disks to be mass produced and distributed for free, in custom DVD cases with their own, re-written manuals for all the new content. I planned to do this despite only opening the CK once, and running Oblivion on low settings with emulated hardware... on a six year old... macbook.

 

I'd like to say I was joking, but this genuinely was how I introduced myself to the mod community The forum at large reached through the computer screen, lifted me from my comfy safe chair, and carried me away to be burned at the stake in the greatest flame thread known to man. Three of my modding heroes (including Hex, the awesome guy behind Unnecessary Violence) who's mods I loved and wanted to include personally (and rightfully) tore me a new one. Bearing in mind that these guys were like mythical beings of greatness to me, it felt like the gods themselves had at last stepped down from heaven, only to smite with the thunderous rage of zeus before returning to their lofty palace in the clouds.

 

To cut a long rambling story short, I took my burned, shrivelled self here, a place of comparable peace and sanctuary, to learn the ways of the modder in the same way a down-on-his-luck stockbroker might shave head his head and travel to the mountains to start his new life as a buddhist monk. I did as you are doing now- set about learning what I would need to know with my end goal in mind. Along the way I found myself distracted by new ideas though, and ended up working on and finishing a multitude of projects, the last of which was second place for file of the month! (losing, of course, to a big boobie mod). I never really let go of Oblivion 2 in my mind along the way until Skyrim came out, by which point I had realised everybody makes their own Oblivion 2 anyway when they mod their games, and I was simply forcing my own preferences on others.

 

What I'm trying to say is this: Hanassie is definitely right when she warns about over facing yourself. You have made a thread asking enough questions to keep the modding equivilant of The Justice League busy for a few days, and the thread is called "Newbie Questions"! It's clear you have a lot of experience with modelling and texturing and would probably find it easy to adapt those skills to work with the creation kit in no time, and your idea is nowhere near as far fetched as mine was, but your planning to do the sort of thing that 7 paid professionals might do for a job in your spare time.

 

My advice however, is definitely not to abandon the project, or even put it aside 'for now". Throw yourself at it, make lists of every skill you will need to learn, divide it into manageable sections, and don't be put off if you fail a thousand times if you have succeeded even once. Be as uncompromising as you like, but allow yourself to be distracted. If you are working on talking animals, and figure it out, and make a cool talking rabbit companion, why not turn that into something stand-alone? If you were working on one thing, and you start experimenting and it kind of turns into another thing, thats fine; see where it goes and release it, because it's all experience. It will feel great getting something done, which is MUCH needed when your sat working on the same thing for months at a time with no relief; I've been working on the same mod for a year now, and it feels awful just looking at the thing because i've not had the reward of releasing something and finishing it and being proud of it in so long. Don't be disappointed in yourself if you find your mind wandering or you need to take a break; it's not settling for less, it's being open minded!

 

Whatever the case though, don't ever lose the "modding enthusiasm" that makes you charge headfirst into things you have no idea about. As soon as you realise you have a comfort zone, smash it to bits and run as fast as you can! Sometimes, the only way to get anywhere in modding is running off the edge of a cliff wondering if you can fly or not, even if it means learning to do so from the rocks below. Or in my case, arrogantly stumbling off a cliff and flapping for 3 years until everyone had stopped throwing pitchforks at me

 

As for practical advice with your problems, I know you came here for quick advice, but I would warn you away from trying to find fast solutions. (Sorry, If someone said that to me when I was looking for help I know I'd want to eat their face.) Instead, look for help finding your own solution. For example, I know there are several tutorials on how to get talking animals working that tell you exactly what buttons to press and what boxes to tick. However, as soon as you want to do something NOT covered by the tutorial, you have no knowledge to fall back on. (this happened to me many, many times ) Start by looking at the animal companions that use the dialogue system that are already in the game- like that talking dog from the deadric quest. See what boxes are ticked and what scripts are used, then search them in the creation kit wiki. Thats not to say that asking for help is bad, and I'm not at all being snidey; this place is here so everyone can help eachother and share their experience, and I'm always asking for help here when I'm stuck on something! I just found that the more I poked around for myself and investigated, the less questions I had to ask, and the faster I solved things in the future. 

 

Anyway, enough rambling about things. Good luck with your project, and I hope you have as much fun as I did learning the ropes! I hope I haven't said anything to discourage you, that wasn't my intention. You certainly came to the right place- I tell everyone that listens that the alliance is the best place to learn, not only from the enclave, but just from talking to all the great modders here!

Mysterious Mr. Bear :D

 

 

 

PS: A tip for a new user of the CK: The CK is not your friend. Don't trust that thing with a dime. The CK isn't your noble steed, the CK is a starved, rabid mountain lion you are trying to ride to glory. If you aren't constantly asserting your dominance to this thing like an emotionally insecure high school jock, it will turn your beautiful creation into an inside out, back to front, upside down husk of a Friendship Is Magic conversion mod. Seriously, if something isn't working, consider ANYTHING to be the culprit, even if it seems impossible. Your NPC hasn't arrived at the destination: is it the package? Is it the pathgrid? Is a door accidently locked? Is he scripted? Do you have another mod overwiting your changes? Do you need to try with a clean save? (some changes, especially with activators, don't take place until you start a new game). To misquote Sherlock Holmes: When every possibility is exhausted, consider the impossible.

[Rhian]

Modding enthusiasm indeed!! Sounds like a hefty project you have planned.

....

 

Anyway, enough rambling about things. Good luck with your project, and I hope you have as much fun as I did learning the ropes! I hope I haven't said anything to discourage you, that wasn't my intention. You certainly came to the right place- I tell everyone that listens that the alliance is the best place to learn, not only from the enclave, but just from talking to all the great modders here!

Mysterious Mr. Bear :D

 

 

 

PS: A tip for a new user of the CK: The CK is not your friend. Don't trust that thing with a dime. The CK isn't your noble steed, the CK is a starved, rabid mountain lion you are trying to ride to glory. If you aren't constantly asserting your dominance to this thing like an emotionally insecure high school jock, it will turn your beautiful creation into an inside out, back to front, upside down husk of a Friendship Is Magic conversion mod. Seriously, if something isn't working, consider ANYTHING to be the culprit, even if it seems impossible. Your NPC hasn't arrived at the destination: is it the package? Is it the pathgrid? Is a door accidently locked? Is he scripted? Do you have another mod overwiting your changes? Do you need to try with a clean save? (some changes, especially with activators, don't take place until you start a new game). To misquote Sherlock Holmes: When every possibility is exhausted, consider the impossible.

------------------------

Thank you Mysterious Mr. Bear

 

Don't worry. The only thing that kills my enthusiasm are rude and highly arrogant people. And those I haven't seen here, so far.

What you worte encouraged me and for what it's worth. I dreamed of an Oblivion 2 myself. I even dream of a TES Game, that focus mainly on Daedra - playing the other side of the mirror this time. Doesn't mean one can't be a Khajiit or so... just  instead of Nirn/Mundus I would love to see Oblivion and all its realms - sort of a Planescape Torment Faction based thingy. But I guess that will never happen.

 

And because of that I find myself more modding than gaming - would even say, for the moment it is more fun, too and also somehow a deep sitting need that requires to be taken care of. TES won me over because of its complex world, the history and Lore and stories people carried. Started with Daggerfall, increased with Morrowind and was dissapointed by Oblivion and even more so with Skyrim... I love Oblivion and Skyrim and the last DLCs made them even better. But they can't compare with the complexity of Daggerfall and Morrowind when it comes to story and characters.

 

So my current need and desire is adding some more Lore and humor to the Game by adding some shrines and background stories.

Ever since Morrowind, I am missing a great deal of the daedric influence in the Games. The quests are far too short (except for the Nightingale/Nocturnal one) . I do not like Nocturnal very much, but the quest was very well done and had more flesh on its bones than most other quests.

 

With Dragonborn they have brought some daedric influence back (a little) by adding the  daedric shrines at the dunmer temple and making ol' Hermie a center piece of the story. But the overal Game doesn't really have enough Daedra in it - Lore and Story wise.

 

I am by far not a Lore buff like Lady M or Kirkbride (he after all wrote most of it, I assume) at the TES Imperial Library.

But I am going deep into it whenever I can and grab all the snippets I can for my Mod (and ongoing FanFic that's more finger practice to keep my english skills alive)

 

So, even if it takes me a year or two to get my Mod done... I will keep at it, until either my real-life won't allow it anymore or the sky drops on my head ^^

 

For now, I have divided my Mod in stages.

 

Stage One: (Probably the easiest one aside from applying Textures to a custom mesh in Niffy)

Importing custom Meshes (my own and resources)

Changing Outdoor Cell Tamriel Wilderness

Creating 9 Indoor Cells & Teleporter Gates

Populating those Indoor Cells with Clutter/Statics and Architectures

Planting Navigation Meshes & Collision Boxes to keep NPCs from running things over or getting stuck.

 

If someone is interested about optimizing the performance - found this Link thanks to _Echo

 

Stage Two:

Creating NPCs & Dialogues

 

Stage Three:

Creating Custom Cell-Bound Sandboxes & Schedules for some of my NPCs

 

Stage Four (if I am still up to it)

Creating Quests & Spawn/Action Scripts

 

Here I think I will have the hardest and most difficult work ahead since I want to work mainly with Vanilla tools so I won't cause custom Scripts like SKSE and FNIS having hissy fits.

 

So all sorted out

 

One last Question... and then I am settled.

 

So - is it true that it is not allowed to use Meshes from Oblivion in Skyrim and some Lawyers will hunt me down and sue me to death if I dare?

I would love to import some of the Oblivion Architectures and Plants/Trees to Skyrim to keep the original TES Feeling by using Items people know from the previous Games?

Edited August 1, 2013 by Rhian

[InsanitySorrow]

So - is it true that it is not allowed to use Meshes from Oblivion in Skyrim and some Lawyers will hunt me down and sue me to death if I dare?

I would love to import some of the Oblivion Architectures and Plants/Trees to Skyrim to keep the original TES Feeling by using Items people know from the previous Games?

Nope you're not allowed, Bethesda most likely won't come after you but you'll find your projects will not be allowed to be discussed on their forums and sites like TESA and Nexus won't allow them to be uploaded either