Levelled Lists

[Running4Cover]

Okay, I have been making lots of armor/weapon retextures recently, and just creating random vendors for them all.  Anyway, I've been thinking that it would be great to add these to the Levelled Lists (in an Armamentarium-like fashion).  Unfortunately, while I understand how to change LL's, I do not know how to prevent incompatabilities or make it work with FCOM or anything (do I use Wrye Bash?  How do I?  etc).  If any CS gurus would be willing to explain this to me (as if they were talking to a two-year-old), I would be most grateful.  Thanks ;-)

CC

[StryderOfOblivion]

I'm not sure about leveled lists, but you can add them to Merchant Containers using scripts which prevents any compatibility issue. Not sure if it will work for leveled lists though.

[StarX]

It kinda depends on how your leveled lists will be structured. Personally I'd start by adding them to the vanilla leveled lists, so they simply can be merged into the Bashed Patch. Today I stumbled on this post from Wrye that explains LL handling very well. Just ignore the fact that this is about CUO  

Wrye wrote:

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To give a very simple example:* Suppose Oblivion has a list called "BanditSwords" which is used by bandits to randomly give them a sword.* Suppose mod "Cool swords.esp" loads after Oblivion.esm and adds a "CoolSword01" to that list* Suppose mod "Dull swords.esp" loads after Cool Swords.esp and adds a "DullSword01" to that list.So Dull Sworlds loads last, and its changes overrule the changes from Cool Swords. Hence, in game you'll only see find Dull Swords and no Cool Swords on bandits.But now if you put Bashed Patch after Dull swords.esp and rebuild the bashed patch, then the bashed patch will merge the changes from both Cool Sworlds and Dull Swords. I.e. Bashed Patch will also override the BanditSwords list, but its version of the leveled list will include both CoolSworld01 and DullSword01. Hence, in game Bandits will sometimes have cool swords and other times have dull swords.So, to answer your question:* Does the last mod to load override the others? Yes.* Does this mean that content of the others will fail to appear? Not if the last mod to load is the Bashed Patch, since it can merge the changes from different mods to the same leveled list. Redirection of Leveled ListsSo why doesn't Wrye Bash work well with CUO? It's because CUO redirects lists.First, lets go with simple (non-redirected) case (no CUO):I.e. suppose list originally looked like:* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05Then OOO change it to* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05* OOOSword01* OOOSword02And TIE changes it to* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05* TieSword01* TieSword02Then bashed version of list looks like* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05* OOOSword01* OOOSword02* TieSword01* TieSword02Here, chance of a vanilla sword is 5/9; OOO sword is 2/9, and Tie sword is 2/9.Now, redirected case (with CUO as a Delev):* CuoBanditSwordsHere Cuo has deleted all of the original swords in the list and has replaced it wth a single reference to a new list called CuoBanditSwords which looks like this:CuoBanditSwords (new list)* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05* CuoSword01* CuoSword02This is why it's called "redirection". CUO redirects the original list (BanditSwords) to a new list (CuoBanditSwords). In this case, the chance of seeing a Cuo sword is 1/1 x 2/7 = 2/7. (The 1/1 is the chance that CuoBanditSwords will be selected from the BanditSwords list.)Now, if you're running CUO and nothing else, the redirection doesn't matter much. But if you're using Bash to merge leveled lists (and if you treat Cuo as delev, then what you get (after merging with other mods above is):* OOOSword01* OOOSword02* TieSword01* TieSword02* CuoBanditSwordsSo in this case, the chance of getting ANY sword from CUO bandit list (including the original vanilla swords) is roughly 1/5, while conversely the chances of getting OOO and TIE swords have gotten a lot higher. This is probably not what is desired. (Chance of OOO sword: 2/5. Chance of TIE sword: 2/5. Chance of vanilla sword: 1/5 x 5/7 = 5/35. Chance of Cuo sword: 1/5 x 2/7 = 2/35)(Too many OOO and TIE swords, not enough Cuo and Vanilla swords.) OTOH, if you don't treat CUO as a delevel, then the list looks like this:* VanillaSword01* VanillaSword02* VanillaSword03* VanillaSword04* VanillaSword05* OOOSword01* OOOSword02* TieSword01* TieSword02* CuoBanditSwordsNow, the balance between Vanilla, OOO and TIE swords is more as desired, but the CUO swords have almost disappeared. (Chance of CUO sword is 1/10 * 2/7 = 2/70.)So that's the problem with list redirection -- it changes the list structure so that Bash is unable to effectively merge the changes in the list. So what's the solution to this? 1) Ideally the original modder does not redirect lists. OR.2) Someone creates a custom patch mod which essentially undoes the list redirection (i.e. moves the vanilla and CUO swords back into the main list). Once that's done, Bash can then merge the custom patch with other OOO, MMM and get a more expected/desired balance of items.

[StryderOfOblivion]

I think that that explains it, but then everyone would have to use Wrye Bashed Patch.

[Running4Cover]

So I don't have to do anything special for this?  WB automatically merges all LL's?  Or do I need to add some special tags or something to make WB automatically merge my LL's?  Thanks for all the help :-D

CC

[StarX]

Well, many people use different mods changing the very same Leveled Lists, so that makes the Bashed Patch essential if you want to see all the changes in your game. Before Wrye Bash featured Leveled List merging, it was impossible to even concider using for example Armamentarium with OOO. Still, it's up to the end user to decide if he wants to use the Bahsed Patch or not.

[StarX]

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So I don't have to do anything special for this?  WB automatically merges all LL's?  Or do I need to add some special tags or something to make WB automatically merge my LL's?  Thanks for all the help :-DCC

AFAIK no special tags are needed if you just add them directly to the vanilla lists. Wrye automatically scans the lists and merges them into the Bashed Patch.

[Running4Cover]

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Well, many people use different mods changing the very same Leveled Lists, so that makes the Bashed Patch essential if you want to see all the changes in your game. Before Wrye Bash featured Leveled List merging, it was impossible to even concider using for example Armamentarium with OOO. Still, it's up to the end user to decide if he wants to use the Bahsed Patch or not.

Okay, I think I understand, but my question is "do I have to do anything special to allow Wrye Bash to merge my LL's? (like add a tag/thing)  Also, if so, then how?"  Thanks again for your time and help.

CC

EDIT:
Just saw your last post.  I understand now, thanks :-D

[StarX]

I was writing a responce to Strider the same time you posted your question.  

Glad I could help.

[StryderOfOblivion]

Using scripts to add them prevents incompatibilities since it adds them once the game starts running. Hence, if you have to mods that do that, they both get added.

[Running4Cover]

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Using scripts to add them prevents incompatibilities since it adds them once the game starts running. Hence, if you have to mods that do that, they both get added.

I can't even begin to express to you my scripting incompetence.  I'm sure I could learn it, but every time I start on a new computer language I start mixing it up with the others and causing problems and such... I'm going to stick with Java for now, but I really did just want to edit vanilla LL's in a simple way that wouldn;t cause conflicts (which this shouldn't supposing you guys aren't LYING!!! (I bet you are, they all hate me ["go away, I'm not here" {if you recognised that line, you definately belong here :-D}])  Well, before this gets any weirder (all my fault, I know), I'm just gonna end this...

CC

[StarX]

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Using scripts to add them prevents incompatibilities since it adds them once the game starts running. Hence, if you have to mods that do that, they both get added.

Does R4C only want to add them to vendors or give them to NPC's as well? I thought he wanted them all over the game world..  If they are only for sale, than creating your own leveled lists and add them to a new vendor container would be best. I never tried to do it by script though.

[Running4Cover]

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Does R4C only want to add them to vendors or give them to NPC's as well? I thought he wanted them all over the game world..  If they are only for sale, than creating your own leveled lists and add them to a new vendor container would be best. I never tried to do it by script though.

Yeah, I want them everywhere, and my whole goal is to stop adding random vendors everywhere :-P  (especially outside in the Weye exterior area, I don't know why I abuse that spot so much :-D)

[StarX]

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Does R4C only want to add them to vendors or give them to NPC's as well? I thought he wanted them all over the game world..  If they are only for sale, than creating your own leveled lists and add them to a new vendor container would be best. I never tried to do it by script though.

Yeah, I want them everywhere, and my whole goal is to stop adding random vendors everywhere :-P  (especially outside in the Weye exterior area, I don't know why I abuse that spot so much :-D)

Maybe make a few optional plugins. One that adds the items only to vendors by using a new vendorchest. And one that adds them to the vanilla leveled lists, so peeps can choose to merge your stuff in with a bashed patch or play your mod as stand alone.

One thing you also might concider is creating an ESM for all the items created, this should only contain the weapons/armor with the appropiate stats without adding them to leveled lists, NPC's or place them inside the gameworld. Makes it very easy to create your optional esp's that way.

Anyway, I'm packing my backs now and be gone for a week to a nice sunny island. Vacation!

Good luck!