The Nine... er Eight Divines

[Si-Shen]

First, the mods can move this if they feel its in the wrong place I just was not sure where to stick this.

Second, this contains some lore-based spoilers, please don't read if you have not read or heard anything about the Divines yet.

Third, the actual topic!

So, if you have been listening to in game conversations, reading in game books, etc it is brought forth that due to a treaty, the Empire is trying to claim Talos is not a Divine. I was torn by this, Part of my (first play) wants to support the Empire but another part feels betrayed that they would try to remove Talos as a Divine. Might seem strange but I became attached to the 9... going back to 8 seems odd, of course in game you can tell that Talos is strong, since you can get blessings at his shrines but I was curious to hear what others thought of this.

[Lanceor]

Talos was actually a mortal who founded the first empire some 600 years before the events of Skyrim. According to Knights of the Nine, he ascended to Godhood after her died.

It seems that "gods" in the Elder Scrolls universe are defined mainly by who or what is being worshipped (much like in real life). The original eight were Aedra whom Queen Alessia decided would be the "official" gods of the Empire. Had someone else led the slave rebellion, the official religion could have been something else entirely.

So my take is that Talos gained god-like power after he died, but what makes him a "god" is defined by what the worshippers/government says - and certain people in Skyrim don't want to recognise Talos as a god.

[Si-Shen]

The rebel leader uses the outlawing of Talos as a tool to gain support in Skyrim, many Nords appear to worship him, there is a shrine in Whiterun and I have found several in other locations now too.

IF he was merely a man being worshiped, his shrines would have no benifit, yet you gain a blessing just like any other shrine.

[the-manta]

I think I remember reading something about to ES lore to the effect that acting like something is the same as being something. So Tiber Septim/Talos acted (or people act towards him) like a god, and hence he is a god.

Also, whatever Ulfric may claim, the Empire cannot really be blamed for the removal of Talos from the pantheon. They didn't choose to (why would they after all, if you think about it, he has even more significance for the imperials than the nords), they were forced to as part of the White Gold Concordat. It is my understanding that the Admeri Dominion was essentially holding all the cards at the end of the Great War, and the Emperor at the time (whoever that was) had no choice but to largely comply with their wishes, including the Talos issue. Of course, I could be completely wrong about all that, it's just what I've gathered from people I've talked to in game. It does seem odd that, if the Dominion had sufficient power to force the Empire's hand in this, the Thalmor don't rule Tamriel.

I guess you have to balance out the removal of Talos against the Stormcloaks' treatment of non-nords, especially the Dunmer in Windhelm and elsewhere. That's what I like about the war element of Skyrim's story; there are no clear cut sides.

[charlescrowe]

I think I remember reading something about to ES lore to the effect that acting like something is the same as being something. So Tiber Septim/Talos acted (or people act towards him) like a god, and hence he is a god.

Also, whatever Ulfric may claim, the Empire cannot really be blamed for the removal of Talos from the pantheon. They didn't choose to (why would they after all, if you think about it, he has even more significance for the imperials than the nords), they were forced to as part of the White Gold Concordat. It is my understanding that the Admeri Dominion was essentially holding all the cards at the end of the Great War, and the Emperor at the time (whoever that was) had no choice but to largely comply with their wishes, including the Talos issue. Of course, I could be completely wrong about all that, it's just what I've gathered from people I've talked to in game. It does seem odd that, if the Dominion had sufficient power to force the Empire's hand in this, the Thalmor don't rule Tamriel.

I guess you have to balance out the removal of Talos against the Stormcloaks' treatment of non-nords, especially the Dunmer in Windhelm and elsewhere. That's what I like about the war element of Skyrim's story; there are no clear cut sides.

since fallout 3, beth's been making awesome plotlines that prey on grey-areas of morality. i think it's brilliant.

[the-manta]

since fallout 3, beth's been making awesome plotlines that prey on grey-areas of morality. i think it's brilliant.

Oh yes, the ending of The Pitt DLC, that was amazing in this respect.

[vometia]

It seems that "gods" in the Elder Scrolls universe are defined mainly by who or what is being worshipped (much like in real life). The original eight were Aedra whom Queen Alessia decided would be the "official" gods of the Empire. Had someone else led the slave rebellion, the official religion could have been something else entirely.

So my take is that Talos gained god-like power after he died, but what makes him a "god" is defined by what the worshippers/government says - and certain people in Skyrim don't want to recognise Talos as a god.

I think that's my take on it: and that ultimately it's more a matter of politics and conquest than it is of genuine theology...

[Si-Shen]

By no means do I agree with many of the stormcloaks when they treat non-nords poorly but at the same time is it wrong that I feel angry that the Dominion has tried to remove Talos from thought beyond a memory? I actually go out of my way to hunt them down. However I tend to believe that Skyrim's future lies with the Empire.

[Dollparts]

However I tend to believe that Skyrim's future lies with the Empire.

It is of my personal belief that the Stormcloak Rebellion is about more than just the exclusion of Talos from the Divines. The Empire is not responsible for it, the Aldmeri Dominion is. And while the Empire could have fought the Dominion to the bitter end, when you think about it, their options were slim: Face annihilation or acquiesce. When it really comes down to it, the majority of people will choose to survive rather than die for what the believe in. It is just, in my opinion, human nature to do what is required to ensure one's survival.

If Ulfric's intentions were as true as he claims then fight would be, quite simply, with the Dominion and not the Empire but instead he choose to fight the Empire and drive them out of Skyrim. I can't help but think of Nazi Germany during the Second World War when I think of Ulfric's intentions and goals. Was there not someone in our own history who wanted to make what he considered a "pure society" and drive out or remove all the "unwanted"? A Nord-only Skyrim shares some eerie similarities, no? And maybe he plans to muster more might than the Empire can handle and repeat history by following Tiber Septim's footsteps and conquer all of Tamrial and begins his own "empire". Who knows.

Just my two, ranbming and ranting, cents.

[Si-Shen]

You actually bring up some interesting points on it.

Some of the NPC's will even comment that the war is about more then what he claims and many doubt him, even some of his supporters doubt Ulfric is telling the whole truth. I had never concidered that the Dominion was involved directly like that, although now that you mention it, it would make sense as they would be "dividing" their foe. I personally go out of my way to attack Dominion forces when I see them, I trust them about as far as I can throw them... which is pretty far with Unrelenting Force fully upgraded LOL. Sad part of all this is its made me wonder about the next game LOL but lets forget about that for now LOL!!

I agree about the similarities, and his very nature causes me to dislike him, it will be hard for me to play any character that sides with him.

[Arion]

I've managed so far to remain independent and not choose sides. Early in the game if you've chosen a side it breaks the main quest and fortunately I hadn't picked sides yet. I've played through the game and watched the reactions of both sides in how I was affected as well as those around me. Other than the opening of the game where I was almost beheaded by the imperials, I havent' had any problems with them and they seem to treat those around them equally well (or ignore) The only ones I hear talking against them are the stormcloaks or someone associated with the stormcloaks.

The stormcloaks are a different story. I've been manhandled by them, talked to rudely, attacked, etc. Windhelm with the grey quarter really upsets me. I've been trying to figure out what side to take here and there's good reason to go with ether side. I tend to fall mostly on the side with Ulfric by what he says, though like others have suggested I think he has more in mind than kicking the imperials out and he wants to be high king.

On the other hand we have in Solitude the widow of the high king that Ulfric killed and she doesn't appear to be as ambitious in seeking to replace her dead husband. That's not to say she isn't interested but she's not throw caution to the wind.

I was thinking that maybe there was a way to replace Ulfric and achieve the same goals but with a less forceful manner and possibly come to a treaty of some sorts with the empire. I hate to say it but I looked at the wiki to kind of get an idea if this was an option and it appears you have no choice but to choose sides. And now I'm considering going with the imperials mostly because a united empire is stronger than individual city states. But I'm against the removing of Talos.. So I'm like duh.....

[Si-Shen]

My first play through I beat the game after completing the rebellion... how does it break the MQ?

IF you group the Dominion in with the Empire then I am a pain to BOTH sides of the war, I tend to treat the Stormcloaks as bad as the Dominion, although I find that most of the regular stormcloaks are only half as bad as their commanders. Still, I can't really and honestly support the Stormcloaks, their racist views are too much, I always chase down the fool that threatens the dark elf the first time you enter the city and beat him up.

My characters all believe in Talos, even if so far they have supported the Empire.

[Arion]

From what I understand if you've joined one of the factions then:

In the main quest when you have to bring both urick and the genreal to the negoiating table to call a truce while the dragon issue is resolved, if you've joined either side you can't get them to call a truce. Neither side is willing to work with you and one or the other usually walks out.

I haven't chosen a side yet and I did the main quest first along with some side quests.

[Si-Shen]

Ok, I have not come up to that situation in game yet, my brother did the MQ without touching the Rebellion and I did the Rebellion through before completing the MQ.

[elanaagain]

I think that's my take on it: and that ultimately it's more a matter of politics and conquest than it is of genuine theology...

Just like in real life.