Lore Hound Lounge

[WhoGuru]

Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen to the first public lore thread for debating and general Lore, lore and LORE discussion. We'd like to welcome and thank you all for taking an interest and hope this thread becomes a place we can all gather and chat about our favorite things.  

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Here we may talk about anything in the Elder Scrolls universe that isn't the video-game aspect. But more, what is in the actual games themselves.

The War in Morrowind, the Shadowscales of Blackmarsh, the fall of the Aylied Empire and the mysterious Akaviri are just a few you could name. Perhaps a lively discussion of the foods available across Tamriel? Which Vintner produces the best wines or which Inn the best Sweetrolls.

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Even if you aren't very familiar you may benefit from this thread, as it hopefully should help you learn some useful little bits

But remember! Even the best of us make mistakes, so take everything with a little pinch of salt.

[align=center]The rules here are simple and easy to follow. There will be:

*No Flaming.

*No Bashing.

*No Emo Rants.

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We trust in everyone to act maturely when debating and respect the thoughts of others, even if you think they are wrong. Nothing wrong with a polite nudge and a little evidence to show them!

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Warning: The very nature of a Lore Discussion means there will be spoilers, storylines will be discussed, plots will be ruined for you if you have not read that, finished this or been there. Read on at your own discretion and you have been duly warned.

[align=center]Release the Hounds!

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[Middark]

Just wanted to say hi. Me, I love the lore of the Elder Scrolls Games, especially Morrowind. In fact, I'll start the discussion (hopefully) by putting this question out there:

Which do you feel had a richer lore, Morrowind or Oblivion?

Personally, I loved Morrowind. Between the rich histories of the dark elves and their prophecies to the "gods" that ruled the land, I was just completely immersed. Although with the Dwemer ruins... it had such an epic feel.

Oblivion, while I love the game, fell a little short. It seemed very standard, with its castles and demons and such. While there was history and what not with the dragon torches and the king, it just didn't give me the culture that Morrowind did.

Thougthts?

-MIddark

The Heart of the Dead Mod

www.heartofthedead.com

[DarkRider]

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Which do you feel had a richer lore, Morrowind or Oblivion?

I think Morrowind carried off a richer lore, but I think Oblivion had a rich lore that was vastly unexplored in the course of the game. There was a lot of potential for Oblivion to have a wider lore basis, but it just wasn't presented. I would wager, because they switched to spoken actors rather than written dialogue, and needed to reduce the amount of dialogue as a result.

[WhoGuru]

Certainly have to go with Morrowind.     Oblivion doled out Lore on really only a select few subjects, ignoring others almost completely while Morrowind was just filled with history and mythology. It was a far richer game world.

I'd agree with Rider that the transition from written dialogue to spoken had a great deal to do with it. I also think they tried to make Oblivion more generally acceptable and a good amount of gamers just aren't willing to do that much reading, which meant reducing the amount required of a player in game.

Thankfully, player created mods are remedying this for those of us who love the game's Lore.  

[Relic]

I'd have to say you learnt a lot more just playing morrowind, without having to search in every crevice and corner.  

Oblivion's lore is much easier for people new to the elder scrolls, as there's not too much on the surface, except those topics covered within the guilds and MQ.

Experienced lore hounds however, could still learn a lot for the books.

I also adored the SI lore, such a wonderful and imaginative place!  

I'd still need to play TES more to give a definative answer, but right now I firmly say Morrowind.

[Sitruk]

Morrowind brought unique architecture, culture, and religious beliefs that I have never seen before. Outcasted Ashland tribes, temple zealots, dominating Ordinators, ALL of it contributed greatly to all of the lore.

I have only one problem with Morrowind. Dialogue! I know this seems like an obsoulte thing but in Oblivion, the NPC's carried emotion, (fear,anger,sadness,joy,surprise). In morrowind people were dry. It was much easier to interpret the lore in Oblivion because people in the game made you care about what has happened and the history of an area through their voice and emotion.

Ex.

Morrowind:"I was robbed by a bandit, I like him, please deliever this glove to him to show my love." (BORING)

Oblivion:"They came out of the darkness, slashing, and biting.(fear) THEY KILLED HER, THOSE BEASTS!(anger) Please you must help me stop them." (YES SIR)

In general though, I definately would pick Morrowind any day. Oblivion seemed really rushed and lacked the rich and vibrant culture Morrowind provided. (Shivering Isles made up for that though)

S.

[WillieSea]

Morrowind held my interest in a game better than Oblivion, at least until SI came out. Oblivion is way to 'earth like' for my taste, where morrowind was more fantastical with mushroom trees and stuff. My favorite part was the giant (at the MQ end) where you had to smack the heart with the two 'objects' in the correct sequence. And I loved the 'weather changing station' of the dwemer. (I think that was from a DLC) The last dwemer alive (half cyborg?) was surprising and cool as well when I ran into him.

Morrowind had a great story that was fun (and sometimes difficult to keep up) to go along with the game. It was easier to mod as well.

[WhoGuru]

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Morrowind held my interest in a game better than Oblivion, at least until SI came out. Oblivion is way to 'earth like' for my taste, where morrowind was more fantastical with mushroom trees and stuff. My favorite part was the giant (at the MQ end) where you had to smack the heart with the two 'objects' in the correct sequence. And I loved the 'weather changing station' of the dwemer. (I think that was from a DLC) The last dwemer alive (half cyborg?) was surprising and cool as well when I ran into him.Morrowind had a great story that was fun (and sometimes difficult to keep up) to go along with the game. It was easier to mod as well.

That's a very nice insight there Will, and one I agree with for the most part.     The question however was which game has a deeper Lore, not which game was better over all. Debates on that subject I would like to avoid altogether as they have a bad habit of degenerating quickly.     It only takes a single comment to start the downward spiral.

So, back on topic, how would you compare the Lore of the two games?  

[DarkRider]

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So, back on topic, how would you compare the Lore of the two games?  

I think Oblivion has a deep lore, I just think it was underplayed. For example, there are a lot of books in Oblivion with lore tidbits within, but there are few quests that required the player to actually READ those books. I think including the texts in some of the quests would have given lore a more forefront position. I liked that in the Mythic Dawn quest you had to read the books to glean the clues, that is, if you didn't go back to Tar Meena for the answers. Another example of dialogue replacing reading and thinking!  

[Relic]

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I think Oblivion has a deep lore, I just think it was underplayed. For example, there are a lot of books in Oblivion with lore tidbits within, but there are few quests that required the player to actually READ those books. I think including the texts in some of the quests would have given lore a more forefront position. I liked that in the Mythic Dawn quest you had to read the books to glean the clues, that is, if you didn't go back to Tar Meena for the answers. Another example of dialogue replacing reading and thinking!  

Yep, The Path of Dawn was an awesome quest, and proabably one of the best there is in any RPG due to avoiding the "run in, slash, slash, return" technique.
(Well, at least in my opinion anyway  )

I'd also like to take this time to thank everyone for visiting our Lounge.


"THANKS"  

[WillieSea]

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That's a very nice insight there Will, and one I agree with for the most part.     The question however was which game has a deeper Lore, not which game was better over all. Debates on that subject I would like to avoid altogether as they have a bad habit of degenerating quickly.     It only takes a single comment to start the downward spiral.So, back on topic, how would you compare the Lore of the two games?  

I think I understood this was about lore, and thus I was saying the parts of the lore that I liked best from Morrowind. The entire quest and story behind the Main Quest and the final stop with sunder and keening at the heart chamber. That was an awesome story. The main quest for Morrowind was much larger in scope than the Oblivion main quest. The Oblivion quest was good, but seemed very short once I started it in comparisson.
Next, the whole mystery and lore behind the dwemer and their mechanical ruins and 'robots' they left behind. (the weather changing station was mechanical and magical and load of fun to play with) Again, a deep lore and story that really intrigued me with its mystery. And then to run into the last 'living' dwemer and the stories he told. The different side stories and quests seemed to tie in very well with each other and the main quest much better in Morrowind, like it was a real place.

I think more development time was put into the story for Morrowind, where more development time was put into the graphics and speech for Oblivion. I appreciate the graphics, but really missed the story in Oblivion. So, back on topic, its simply my belief that Morrowind had much more meat to its lore and story than Oblivion. Oblivion had the potential, but it may have been shipped in order to start generating profits sooner.

[Relic]

I think this discussion has ended.

Time for a new one!

What would you consider the most interesting culture in Tamriel and why?

For me; it's the Dunmer, but not just because of their main starring in Morriwind; but because of firstly their appearance; which I just adore.

I love the whole conspiracy wars between rival factions in one nation; and the faith of the Almsivi.

[Cliffworms]

The Dunmer are indeed an interesting race with a deep culture. They never seem to be in peace with the world, not even with themselves. The Great Houses are constantly at war and even King Helseth declared war on what is left of House Indoril. The Dunmer's past and present is a bloody one indeed.

The race I'm the most interested in are the Argonians simply because not much is known about them and their lands. Argonia is filled with diseases that kill any non-native, mysterious unrecorded creatures in the Empire's books and there are rumors that Argonians possess cities underwater or at least.. underswamp. And now, after and during the Oblivion events, many Argonians have been "called back" to Black Marsh, no one knows why. They dissapear in their swamps and are never seen again. Then there's an Imperial Legion regiment who abandonned Fort Swampmoth. Finally, many of the Empire's settlers have been lost in this hostile territory. Something's coming in Black Marsh, I feel it. Or another disaster is coming on Tamriel and the Argonians are hiding in safety underwater.

[Relic]

That's quite simply why I love dunmer.

Bloodlust!  

As for Argonia, I know very little of it and its inhabitants, but it's the "dangerous" provinces that interest me most.

I can't play TES at the moment due to disk drive problems...   ...thank goodness for the Imperial Library.

Post Scriptum

Thanks for resurrecting this thread!  

[Vereta]

I've got to say I love the Argonians. It may have been their looks at first bu in the end, as I learned more of their history, they interested me more an more. They are very mysterious and are easily the most unknown race in the ES series. The variety of Argonians out their make it even better. Their homeland, the Black Marsh, would be a great place to visit in the next TES. I can't wait to learn more about them.

[bg2408]

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What would you consider the most interesting culture in Tamriel and why?

Depends.

Oh, you said Tamriel? This makes it a bit easier, now that Maormer, Akaviri, Sloads and Daedra are out of the way .

I think each culture in Tamriel has something interesting - even our friendly cannibalistic runts from Valenwood . My favorite would be the Khajiit, if only for their sheer weirdness. I mean, seventeen forms, ranging from elves to "jaguar man" looking more intimidating than werewolves on the bipedal side, and ranging from intelligent housecats to intelligent house big monster cats on the quadruped side. Combine this with differences between a jungle and a desert dwelling culture, which are still in conflict with each other. This makes it pretty interesting, I think. Which is also in line with the few snippits we have about their culture in lore (e.g. Words of Clan Mother, the "tapestry" interview).

[Relic]

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What would you consider the most interesting culture in Tamriel and why?

Oh, you said Tamriel? This makes it a bit easier, now that Maormer, Akaviri, Sloads and Daedra are out of the way .

Indeed, if I said all[/b[ of Nirn people may be a bit confuddled about some of the races completely, and while the purpose of this section is to learn, we'll need to get the lessons on the basic races done (damned be school and jobs huh?  ) and dusted before we get onto the Akaviri and such.  

I too love the many different forms of Khajiit.  

[yu-gi-oh-fan]

I´ll agree that it seems that Morrowind have a much more complex/showing lore then Oblivion, but I have just played Morrowind a little, and Oblivion quite alot, so I might base my "knowledge" on something that´s wrong

yugi

[the-manta]

I wonder if anyone else has any interest in a small chunk of lore that intrigues me...

The piece I'm referring to is the existence of four islands in the Sea of Ghosts, between Tamriel and Akavir (yep, that's right, I skimmed right over the word "Akavir" and concentrated on the filler ) called Roscrea, Cathnoquey, Yneslea and Esroniet, listed here in what I assume is a descending order of proximity of Tamriel (based on the dates of their subjugation). There is virtually no information available regarding them; they are only mentioned briefly in the books "Report: Disaster at Ionith", "A Brief History of the Empire" and (Roscrea only) "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition", and when they are mentioned, almost no information is given. The sum of my knowledge of the topic is that:

- The islands were conquered one by one by Uriel Septim V on the way to invade Akavir

- Esroniet has a port called Black Harbor, from which the invasion of Akavir was launched, and was ruled, prior to its invasion by the Empire, by a one "Prince Bashomon"

- The rebellious inhabitants of Yneslea contributed to the Empire's defeat in Akavir, by causing the diversion of two legions (intended as reinforcements) to the island

- "Late in the Third Era", Roscrea was annexed by Solitude, one of Skyrim's most prominent counties, along with an unspecified number of other "former imperial territories"

I think it is this mysterious lack of information (even though it is most likely caused by the unimportance/insignificance of the islands) which attracts me to these imperial pitstops. I once harboured dreams of making one (most likely Roscrea, as it is, I believe, the nearest) as a mod. They seemed perfect to me- their size, culture, history (outside of the imperial invasion) etc are unspecified, meaning total freedom to create whatever, without just inventing a landmass never mentioned in the lore.

I never began work or anything more than the lightest of speculations on this project, as it was (and is) well beyond my capabilities, but I remain certain that the Sea of Ghosts islands are ideal candidates for modders who want to build "new world" mods which conform to lore but give them almost total creative freedom. Perhaps, given that Roscrea is (at the time of Oblivion anyway) a colony of Solitude, the idea of a Roscrea mod would be one worth stashing away for TESV (it probably wouldn't still be a colony, given the turmoil in Skyrim, but would logically be reachable). I still hold a faint hope that, as I will see Skyrim from its release to (hopefully) that of the next ES game, I will have the time and opportunity to gain the modding skills for this sort of project (with a team) but I digress.

Anyway, I don't really know why I'm posting this here, just felt like chatting about it. Does anyone know anything about these islands? Does anyone even care? Are they worthless filler to make books longer ?

[mALX]

Favorite female character from lore: Barenziah

Favorite male character from lore: Jagar Tharn

[mALX]

I wonder if anyone else has any interest in a small chunk of lore that intrigues me...

The piece I'm referring to is the existence of four islands in the Sea of Ghosts, between Tamriel and Akavir (yep, that's right, I skimmed right over the word "Akavir" and concentrated on the filler ) called Roscrea, Cathnoquey, Yneslea and Esroniet, listed here in what I assume is a descending order of proximity of Tamriel (based on the dates of their subjugation). There is virtually no information available regarding them; they are only mentioned briefly in the books "Report: Disaster at Ionith", "A Brief History of the Empire" and (Roscrea only) "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition", and when they are mentioned, almost no information is given. The sum of my knowledge of the topic is that:

- The islands were conquered one by one by Uriel Septim V on the way to invade Akavir

- Esroniet has a port called Black Harbor, from which the invasion of Akavir was launched, and was ruled, prior to its invasion by the Empire, by a one "Prince Bashomon"

- The rebellious inhabitants of Yneslea contributed to the Empire's defeat in Akavir, by causing the diversion of two legions (intended as reinforcements) to the island

- "Late in the Third Era", Roscrea was annexed by Solitude, one of Skyrim's most prominent counties, along with an unspecified number of other "former imperial territories"

I think it is this mysterious lack of information (even though it is most likely caused by the unimportance/insignificance of the islands) which attracts me to these imperial pitstops. I once harboured dreams of making one (most likely Roscrea, as it is, I believe, the nearest) as a mod. They seemed perfect to me- their size, culture, history (outside of the imperial invasion) etc are unspecified, meaning total freedom to create whatever, without just inventing a landmass never mentioned in the lore.

I never began work or anything more than the lightest of speculations on this project, as it was (and is) well beyond my capabilities, but I remain certain that the Sea of Ghosts islands are ideal candidates for modders who want to build "new world" mods which conform to lore but give them almost total creative freedom. Perhaps, given that Roscrea is (at the time of Oblivion anyway) a colony of Solitude, the idea of a Roscrea mod would be one worth stashing away for TESV (it probably wouldn't still be a colony, given the turmoil in Skyrim, but would logically be reachable). I still hold a faint hope that, as I will see Skyrim from its release to (hopefully) that of the next ES game, I will have the time and opportunity to gain the modding skills for this sort of project (with a team) but I digress.

Anyway, I don't really know why I'm posting this here, just felt like chatting about it. Does anyone know anything about these islands? Does anyone even care? Are they worthless filler to make books longer ?

I happened across some lore from the Sea of Ghosts while reading "Hallgerd's Tale;" Nandor Beraid, who was the Empress Katariah's champion (renowned for being able to use any weapon ever invented) drowned in the Sea of Ghosts because he couldn't remove his armor and sank like a stone. Wonder if that armor can still be found on the bottom of the sea? Bethesda is always hiding stuff on sea bottoms, (aka Point Lookout) - kind of makes me wonder if I should load up the game and take a swim around, lol.

The islands are supposedly inaccessible due to the "Ghosts" - shoals created by the explosion of Red Mountain - here is a quote from the article:

"A major eruption of the giant volcano Red Mountain changed the face of Morrowind in 1E 668. The Sea of Ghost's icy waters filled the chasms created by the shifting land masses of the sub-continent, and thus the Inner Sea and the island of Vvardenfell were born. The needle-like rocks in the Sheogorad region make the islands here almost unreachable by ship."

And the picture of the Sea of Ghosts that was with the article:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-Places-Sheogorad01.jpg

You've already squirreled out every bit of information I could find on them, lol.

*

Edited September 16, 2011 by mALX