Pathing

[GothGirlDanielle]

Okay, I have several dungeons made and I'm working on pathing. I've read what I can find on the subject but it's usually included in another, larger tutorial (e.g. My First Dungeon on the CS Wiki). I've read several references to how hard it is and how you have to be careful, but no one really what you have to be careful for. Or maybe I'm just missing it.

Any suggestions on a good pathing tutorial? Or how pathing works. I mean, do the NPCs follow the red dots or do they wander in the triangles or what? I can copy what Bethesda does but I'd like a better understanding of how it works.

Right now, I'm thinking that you want to cover all flat floor space with pathing triangles. Also, you don't want pathing to cross traps (or do you)? Basically, I need suggestions (and tips) on how to make pathing a success.

Thanks for any help.

~ Dani ~

[Beana]

DarkRider has a lesson on Pathing Exterior Interior It explains the ins and outs and is a great place to start!

[DarkRider]

Beana is correct, I've covered pathing pretty extensively, but there is also the Additional Pathing Info section, in case you're looking for something else.

[GothGirlDanielle]

Great! Thanks for the both of those links. I tried looking at some of the tutorials here on this forum, but I kept seem messages like:

"Thread reserved for future tutorial."

Or words to that effect. After a couple of failures, I quit looking. Sorry.

~ Dani ~

Edited September 20, 2010 by GothGirlDanielle

[Beana]

No need for sorrys! I can see how finding something specifically for pathing could be difficult, I am glad we were able to point you in the right direction!!

[DarkRider]

Some of the classes are in development right now, when we moved the site to this software many of the old tutorials were lost as well as a couple scholars. The CS Basics Class, NPCs, Story/Lore, Modeling, and Scripting are all complete and have loads of useful info.

Worldbuilding and Texturing are the only two currently under construction, and Questbuilding will be redesigned at a later date. Those are probably some of the ones you are most interested in I'd wager.

[GothGirlDanielle]

World building and texturing were exactly the two I looked at ...

Okay, I read both of those and thank you for posting them. I really do appreciate it. Glad to know about the control button issues.

But I need to go a bit deeper. Maybe advance advanced pathing. So I'm going to ask some questions (sorry):

(1) I like the train track metaphor in the advanced tutorial. Is that dead-on accurate? Do the NPCs only follow the yellow paths? It seems like Bethesda Pathing Theory (which I've discerned merely by looking at ten or so dungeons ... ... so, yeah, theory) is to cover the floor space completely (well, avoiding furniture and walls). This coverage is usually done with the same triangular approach used in both of DarkRider's tutorials. In a triangle, will the NPC wander into the triangular area or just follow the grid. What about when they're attacking?

(2) For larger dungeons, long hallways, things like that, is there a faster way to lay the pathing points? Something like CTL-D? Several of my dungeons will require hundreds of pathing points.

(3) The "My First Dungeon" tutorial makes reference to "preferred pathing". I notice the blue (or peferred) pathing points or nodes in Bethesda dungeons, primarily on stairs. Often, they just have the one line going up the stairs. Does this mean only one NPC can go up the stairs at a time? Also, I'm assuming if you use a blue path, you shouldn't use a red path in the same area.

(4) This may seem obvious, but do NPCs stop every time they hit a red point? Also, does pathing apply to Goblins and other creatures? I'm assuming yes, but I thought I'd ask.

(5) What if you, say, screwed up your pathing because you didn't know what you were doing and you want to start over? How do you delete an entire grid without deleting the stuff in your dungeon?

(6) I know you can link pathing nodes to traps. Can you link them to gates and doors in dungeons? Both are activators. So if you link you nodes to a gate in a dungeon, and the gate isn't raised, the NPC won't walk into it. If the gates is raised, they'll walk out.

(7) I notice both tutorials make reference to dungeons without pathing (and, ironically, lazy modders). But one page I read indicated NPCs can "ignore" pathing. So does pathing force an NPC to follow a track (like a train)? And what influences an NPC to ignore pathing? And (sorry ... questions) do NPCs follow pathing when attacking.

Thanks for the help.

~ Dani ~

Edited September 20, 2010 by GothGirlDanielle

[DarkRider]

(1) I like the train track metaphor in the advanced tutorial. Is that dead-on accurate? Do the NPCs only follow the yellow paths? It seems like Bethesda Pathing Theory (which I've discerned merely by looking at ten or so dungeons ... ... so, yeah, theory) is to cover the floor space completely (well, avoiding furniture and walls). This coverage is usually done with the same triangular approach used in both of DarkRider's tutorials. In a triangle, will the NPC wander into the triangular area or just follow the grid. What about when they're attacking?

They are following the yellow lines and pause at the nodes. A node is just a safe place to stand to NPCs. The triangles form a grid, the grid layout just offers the cleanest floorplan and optimum relationship between nodes. The attack targets on a character and in attackmode NPCs disregard pathing for the most part.

(2) For larger dungeons, long hallways, things like that, is there a faster way to lay the pathing points? Something like CTL-D? Several of my dungeons will require hundreds of pathing points.

Nope no shortcuts. You can spread your nodes further apart and setting nodes first then linking them can speed up the process. You will see red nodes in your dreams

(3) The "My First Dungeon" tutorial makes reference to "preferred pathing". I notice the blue (or peferred) pathing points or nodes in Bethesda dungeons, primarily on stairs. Often, they just have the one line going up the stairs. Does this mean only one NPC can go up the stairs at a time? Also, I'm assuming if you use a blue path, you shouldn't use a red path in the same area.

A blue path serves a specific function, usually as part of a quest or an AI directed behavior; to make sure a specific NPC doesn't get lost. You can use all nodes in one area but the NPCs will favor blue over red and red over orange. If one NPC is using the blue path the second will follow on the same line or use a secondary red path if you provide one.

(4) This may seem obvious, but do NPCs stop every time they hit a red point? Also, does pathing apply to Goblins and other creatures? I'm assuming yes, but I thought I'd ask.

No they don't stop at every red point, but they have the option to. And yes creatures follow pathing too.

(5) What if you, say, screwed up your pathing because you didn't know what you were doing and you want to start over? How do you delete an entire grid without deleting the stuff in your dungeon?

When the pathing tool is active you can't move anything in the cell unless you turn it off first. You can click/drag a selection rectangle around groups of nodes and click the delete key to delete them. That said, do reasonable sized groups. If you try to delete too many at once you may crash the CS. Save often.

(6) I know you can link pathing nodes to traps. Can you link them to gates and doors in dungeons? Both are activators. So if you link you nodes to a gate in a dungeon, and the gate isn't raised, the NPC won't walk into it. If the gates is raised, they'll walk out.

Most NPCs are smart enough to choose an alternate route if there is an obstacle like a gate or door. You can path through the doorway, if it's open they will use it.

(7) I notice both tutorials make reference to dungeons without pathing (and, ironically, lazy modders). But one page I read indicated NPCs can "ignore" pathing. So does pathing force an NPC to follow a track (like a train)? And what influences an NPC to ignore pathing? And (sorry ... questions) do NPCs follow pathing when attacking.

Mostly NPCs always follow paths it's how they navigate independantly. However targeting (like they do in attack mode or fleeing too to an extent) can cause them to disregard pathing. They will always return to a path if they deviate from it once they are at rest again. In those instances, the NPC follows its target instead of the path.

[GothGirlDanielle]

DarkRider:

Thanks for the answers. That helps a lot. The only thing that wasn't clear is what are the orange points for? And if blue is preferred and quest related - I assume like following Baurus through the sewers - then should I use them for general dungeon design? Or can I use them to set ambushes? Example: in a two level dungeon (one with a balcony) I can path in blue to balcony and at least one NPC will stay in that area, creating the possibility of an attack from overhead.

As for spacing - as tempting as it is to space them wider apart, I'm following Bethesda's spacing, at least during my learning stage.

So, as a general statement, for most non-quest related pathing, it simply serves to give the enemy NPC something to do while waiting for a player attack? Do I need to anything else, like set a schedule? And how does that work with spawn points? Scheduling, that is. Do you set schedules for enemy NPCs, such as unique bosses?

Sorry for all the questions.

~ Dani ~

[WindmillTilter]

Orange points are auto generated by the engine and therefore considered by NPCs as the least reliable.

If there are blue and red path points both in the direction the NPCs AI is sending it, it will always choose the blue ones. It's like telling them "this is the easiest way to navigate through this space", handy if you don't want them to get distracted in a large or cluttered area that's pathed. To setup up an ambush you should create an AI package for your NPC that either has them wait there, or has them patrol a route that includes the balcony (if you only want the possibility).

Pathing just tells them how to get from here to there, where they wait and weather they wait around or go somewhere is all controlled by their AI packages. The AI is usualy setup on schedules (patrol this route from 8:00 - 5:00, eat supper from 5:00 - 7:00, sleep from 9:00 - 6:00, etc.) which makes the NPC behaivour more realistic, but you don't absolutely have to. For example you could setup your ambush PC to wait on the balcony 24/7 if you didn't want to bother setting up multiple NPCs with shifts, it's all up to the level of detail you want to put in.

WT