[WIPz/IDEA] Skyrim Derailed

[darthsloth74]

daemondarque: Yes I agree entirely with what you are saying.

Personally I've gone back to Morrowind and New Vegas, my Skyrim days are over until someone injects some real roleplaying into the game. New Vegas at least offers choice and multiple endings. As for Morrowind the reason that game works is because I never feel like the centre of attention, I have to earn my place in the world with some hard grafting (grinding to some). At least I can play the game how I want and never feel railroaded into quests that my character would never logically pursue.

Now while I love Skyrim's design of the world and its artistic look the mechanics just seem inherently flawed to me. A distinct lack of choice and the stupidity of becoming master of every guild in Skyrim through almost no effort. Thats my own opinion however and I don't expect people to share it.

Edited January 1, 2012 by darthsloth74

[Ysne58]

I am so glad TK is taking this on. I don't like being duped/coerced/railroaded either.

[Ginnyfizz]

Good friends, I am so happy that I am not the only one that hates being railroaded! I have a thread over at Nexus about it because I am so hacked off about the things that you folks have brought up!

All power to you modders once that CK is out!

[AndalayBay]

Geez, this looks worse than I thought. I've been following this since TK first suggested it, but as I find out more about it, I'm agreeing more all the time too. Beth really skimped on this aspect of Skyrim. Good work, TK. I'll help you with it if you like.

[Ginnyfizz]

Here's another one I am considering: allowing completion of the Companions' Main Quest without becoming a Werewolf.

Once Skjor tells you to meet him at the Underforge and you have been given the option. You can refuse as normal and continue to take up random quests for the Companions. If you change your mind, just go back to the Underforge and take the ritual. Eventually, if you do not return to claim your lycanthropy, (upon completion of about three more Radiant missions), Aela will meet up with you herself and request you to travel to Gallows Rock for a special job.

Choose wisely, once you arrive at Gallows Rock, you will not receive another chance to be a Werewolf.

I especially like this, my girls do not do ugly dogbreathed werewolf. Ever.

And yes please to relocating Word Walls.

[Ginnyfizz]

Sorry for double post but I have another item for relocating. The Stones Of Barenziah, one of them is in the DB Sanctuary.

[Khettienna]

Okay, now that I've finished the game in its entirety minus any guilds, I have a few small ideas to add to what is here already:

MQ/Mages Guild Hook - You do not have to join the Mage's Guild already; however, the game doesn't give you any indication of this. You can already skip right to Septimus Signus, and not set a foot in Winterhold. All that is needed here is an edit to the quest journal & markers to make this evident to the player.

Forced Thieves Guild Quest - At any point until the player actually follows through on the marketplace con, they could either report Brynjolf to the guards, or just tell Brynjolf they really have no interest and won't be participating in his little game. Some neutrally-aligned characters would appreciate the option, I think. It also leaves room for the player to restart the quest chain, if they choose to later -- see the next segment.

Daedric Shrines - A lot of these already have dialog responses so the player can refuse the quest; however, this is a dirty trick, and the player gets sacked with it anyway. Reorganizing the quest stages and the results scripts so that this option is presented before the quest is actually started, and/or allowing repeat stages, or some amalgamation of both, would allow the player to return and do those quests later if they chose, without having the quest in the quest log. Again, they could also kill the non-Daedric-Prince questgiver bad guy or tell the revelant Prince to bugger off and burn the bridge. In specific cases such as the Namira quest, where you think you're being helpful until you get to the part where all your choices suck, adding the option already brought up to warn the good-guy NPC is a nice idea.

[greenwarden]

I'll add here that I avoided the Thieves Guild quest just last night by feigning outrage at Brynjolf's proposal- I believe the dialog option was "But that would mean breaking the law", to which he replied "Oh, sorry miss, I'm usually so good at sensing these things." Something like that, anyway. Still, I'm all for more roleplaying options- ratting him out (like it would do any good, given Riften's level of corruption, but still...), simply telling him a flat "No", so you don't have to choose the default sanctimonious prig response, or hell, even giving Brynjolf a good kick in the shin would be fun.

[Ysne58]

I'll add here that I avoided the Thieves Guild quest just last night by feigning outrage at Brynjolf's proposal- I believe the dialog option was "But that would mean breaking the law", to which he replied "Oh, sorry miss, I'm usually so good at sensing these things." Something like that, anyway. Still, I'm all for more roleplaying options- ratting him out (like it would do any good, given Riften's level of corruption, but still...), simply telling him a flat "No", so you don't have to choose the default sanctimonious prig response, or hell, even giving Brynjolf a good kick in the shin would be fun.

I would love to see someone take off with a Robin Hood variation, possibly using Mjoll as the NPC head of a new faction. I that idea is beyond the scope of what TK is planning here.

[Arthmoor]

MQ/Mages Guild Hook - You do not have to join the Mage's Guild already; however, the game doesn't give you any indication of this. You can already skip right to Septimus Signus, and not set a foot in Winterhold. All that is needed here is an edit to the quest journal & markers to make this evident to the player.

My only problem with providing a journal entry to go straight to Signus is that it requires meta-gaming with out of character knowledge to even be logical. Your character has no way to know about that option without being told first. Sure, you could stumble over him on your own but how likely is it that most people are going to randomly explore deep into the ice flows?

[Khettienna]

My only problem with providing a journal entry to go straight to Signus is that it requires meta-gaming with out of character knowledge to even be logical. Your character has no way to know about that option without being told first. Sure, you could stumble over him on your own but how likely is it that most people are going to randomly explore deep into the ice flows?

Not entirely - I could be mis-remembering, mind you, but I feel like it was the journal entry or quest marker that pointed to Winterhold, because I remember that whole bit of the quest felt unnaturally cobbled together, as though it had been chopped somehow from its original making. So why not just augment the journal entry to also mention this other guy? If it was dialog, that could also be edited. But either way, editing the text of one or the other or both to show the player an already existing option seems like a cleaner way to do it, with less compatibility issues or user error down the road.

[Arthmoor]

It might also be cleaner to get the person at the head of the bridge to accept your "I'm the Dragonborn" answer without having that draft you by force into being a member of the College, because even that option forces the faction membership on you. Plus it doesn't get rid of the "visit the college" journal entry either. For the MQ you're basically going to see the orc in the library. So either method that proves useful to get that meeting works for me. Either skip the faction drafting or have him visit the city. I suspect making him visit the city will be slightly less prone to compatibility issues.

[Khettienna]

Oh, that's a two-fer, and I do like those.

[ThomasKaira]

It might also be cleaner to get the person at the head of the bridge to accept your "I'm the Dragonborn" answer without having that draft you by force into being a member of the College, because even that option forces the faction membership on you. Plus it doesn't get rid of the "visit the college" journal entry either. For the MQ you're basically going to see the orc in the library. So either method that proves useful to get that meeting works for me. Either skip the faction drafting or have him visit the city. I suspect making him visit the city will be slightly less prone to compatibility issues.

Yeah, that sounds like a better idea. I think what I will actually do is modify that whole scene so that you don't get auto-recruited into the CoW faction, instead you have to speak with that lady in the courtyard in order to become an official member (completing the bridge sequence would only be tied to the College of Winterhold misc. objective instead). Simply demonstrating that you understand the magical arts (or play the Dragonborn card) will be enough to grant you provisional access to the College, which includes the Arcaneum.

Edited January 9, 2012 by ThomasKaira

[darthsloth74]

Regarding the Namira quest Arthmoor pointed out. When you first go into the Hall of the Dead and find the woman there who offers you the chance to become one of their vile members. If you refuse and kill her, you fail the quest.

Seems really dumb when my character doesn't want to be a filthy cannibal.

[AndalayBay]

Got another one: the Dibella temple quest. It starts with being told to talk to Degaine in Markarth. If you do, he tells you he wants you to steal a statue from the temple. Well I don't want to steal a statue, but there's no option to tell him that. Then it turns out if you do go and steal the statue, you can do it so that you intentionally get caught, which then gives you the option of helping the temple! This whole thing sounds really warped to me.

[ThomasKaira]

Got another one: the Dibella temple quest. It starts with being told to talk to Degaine in Markarth. If you do, he tells you he wants you to steal a statue from the temple. Well I don't want to steal a statue, but there's no option to tell him that. Then it turns out if you do go and steal the statue, you can do it so that you intentionally get caught, which then gives you the option of helping the temple! This whole thing sounds really warped to me.

Now there's a lolwut if ever there was one.

I'll see about making it so you can just tell someone at the temple what the deal is to open up that branch of the quest instead of being forced to do something that might go against your character's moral compass in order to be able to do something else that does.

[Arthmoor]

Another railroading point:

When looking to retrieve the Morokei dragon priest mask, you have to complete the Staff of Magnus quest first. Meaning you need to be fairly far along in the College quests before you can get it since the Labrynthian is locked out until you've done so. This one is going to be difficult to rectify. Maybe even impossible since Bethesda has tied the backstory for Savos Aren to Morokei.

[Khettienna]

I guess I'll just toss all the other masks back in the nightstand, then, I ain't doin' it.

Would it be overkill to prevent the player from acquiring any dragon masks until they have joined the College, in that case? So, you know, they aren't otherwise carrying them around sure they go to something important?

[Arthmoor]

I think that would be a bit harsh since the masks you can otherwise get are usually well worth it on their own. It's only those who seek a complete set to put on the display statue that will be burned by that. Of course it makes little sense in my mind for a stealth oriented character who has risen to Listener of the DB and Guildmaster of Thieves to ALSO have to seek out becoming Archmage of the College just to get that last mask.

[ThomasKaira]

Bad news. I am not going to be able to separate the Main Quest from the Civil War.

Almost the entire first half of the first act of the Main Quest relies on Balgruuf being the reigning Jarl, and things could get royally messed up if Vignar were on the throne during those points because every piece of dialogue refers back to Balgruuf, and I can't change dialogue (because of the voice-acting). One of the goals of this mod is to not interfere with the original voice-acting in any way, and there is no telling what sort of havoc might occur if Balgruuf was removed from the game before his required role in the Main Quest was completed so this means the Main Quest - Civil War derail has to be abandoned. Besides, he does give perfectly valid and reasonable excuses for avoiding dealing with Tullius and Ulfric.

What I have done, however, is added a couple new pieces of conditional dialogue to the guards at the gate if you have progressed to the point in the Civil War where you need to visit Balgruuf so you can state you are there on Civil War business instead of being forced to say something about the dragon attack.

[Arthmoor]

Suspected that might end up the case. The beginning of the game is tied down so tightly to going to Whiterun that it's hardly surprising this would be unbreakable.

[ThomasKaira]

Up next: giving the player the option to walk away from Aventus Aretino without being forced into saying you will help him. The Dark Brotherhood should then proceed as normal, with you getting the Black Hand letter, and then being abducted.

This should give good-aligned players a reasonable "way out" of the Dark Brotherhood, as well as providing a more sensible means to roleplay a character who will destroy the Dark Brotherhood.

[onra]

hmm...I don't mind to play through all the guild quests in one game...speaking as a true soldier of fortune....what I don't like is that I automatically become member or even worse leader of all these guilds after finishing the questlines...I do not want to be archmage etc... would be better to get some nice useful rewards for the main guild quests, a player home, supplies, new gear, companions whatever and the OFFER to become a fully member of the guild..from this point you could rise up the ranks of the guilds (if you want to join) by doing new quests and improving the necessary skills which would be required for different ranks.....this would be the point where the rollplaying starts....

just my 2 cents

cheers

[Ysne58]

I do agree with Onra on this.