[WIPz/IDEA] Skyrim Derailed

[ThomasKaira]

The problems:

- Skyrim's main quest tries very hard to force the player into positions that violate roleplaying by putting him into cahoots with the Thieves Guild and the College of Winterhold while not offering reasonable alternatives for those who do not wish to get involved with them.

- The side-quest "Forbidden Legend" requires College of Winterhold membership, but never bothers to tell this to you until you discover that one of the dungeons you need to access has a "Key Required" lock.

- There is at least one word of Power that can only be obtained from faction dungeons (examples: Saarthal for Winterhold, Snow Veil Sanctum for Thieves Guild). This leaves roleplayers who do not wish to join every Guild unable to fully master their abilities as Dragonborn. This would be fine if that meant not being able to access entire shouts, but not allowing the player to complete a shout they can learn outside of the guild without joining the guild is a cheap, transparent padding ploy.

- You have to partially complete the Main Quest if you wish to complete the Civil War questline.

- The Thieves Guild questline is obviously padded by the random quests constantly sending you back to Holds you have already finished.

- Talking to Aventus Aretino in Windhelm initiates the Dark Brotherhood questline whether you like it or not.

- The quest "Paarthurnax" can only be completed by killing Paarthurnax. If you try to do this post-MQ, he has become essential and the quest becomes permanently stalled.

The solutions:

Main Quest Thieves Guild railroad: Will allow you to report Brynjolf to the Riften Guard to get him thrown in prison after he approaches you with his scheme. This will allow you to remove that quest from your journal and sever ties with the Thieves Guild. You will then be directed to speak to the bartender of Bee and Barb, who will direct you to the Ragged Flagon to speak to the bartender there about Esbern. The Bribe option will be guaranteed to work.

Main Quest College of Winterhold railroad: The librarian will be moved to the inn for the duration of the needed quest. You can talk to him and get everything you need from him there. If you are not a member, he will also be returned to the inn after you have finished Elder Legends so you can hand over the Elder Scroll.

Civil War Main Quest railroad: Will add options to the guards at the gates to allow you in under orders of Tullius or Ulfric. Jarl Balgruuf's normal MQ dialogue with you will be suspended until you wish to initiate it.

Forbidden Legend College of Winterhold railroad: The dungeon boss in saarthal will be replaced with a generic named Draugr boss. Jyrik Gauldurson will be relocated to another large barrow. All instances of the quest books referring to Saarthal will be replaced with the new dungeon.

The Thieves Guild random quests will have specific Holds culled and prevent random quests from being assigned there once you complete that particular Hold's special job. Once you have fully restored the Guild, the floodgates will be re-opened.

Aventus Aretino will receive a dialogue option allowing you to back out of helping him and turn him into the guards. The Dark Brotherhood questline will then proceed as normal with you receiving the "We Know" note. Don't worry, there is still an option for good aligned characters to terminate their relationship with the Dark Brotherhood after that point.

Telling the Greybeards you will not kill Paarthurnax will also complete the quest, though it will alienate you from the Blades as a result. (I am debating this one right now because as of now I actually consider this quest to be bugged due to it being possible to permanently stall the quest by putting it off too long.)

And for the word walls: they will be moved elsewhere, as well. Some might become dragon roosts, others might end up in other dungeons.

That is the extent of the mod for now. Any ideas on how to make this as seamless as possible are more than welcome.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ThomasKaira

[donnato]

TK...I like that you`ve identified your problems and suggested possible fixes. I`ll have to think about this and see if I can offer anything constructive for ya.

[Ysne58]

I think this looks absolutely great so far TK.

[ThomasKaira]

A new railroad has been identified and solution proposed for Skyrim's Civil War questline.

[Ysne58]

As far as Winterhold College goes, I think putting the librarian in the inn during the relevant times is the best solution. I don't like the other suggestions that have been posted at all, and I have a feeling those suggestions would muck up the main quest.

[Arthmoor]

Not sure if it fits, but you may want to consider a 3rd option for the Dark Brotherhood. As it stands right now, you have two paths, both of which require you to do what the Aretino boy wants.

1. Kill one of Astrid's captives, join the guild, etc.

2. Kill Astrid, and follow the alternative to wipe out the Brotherhood.

I'd like to see another path where you meet up with the kid and the "I'm not who you think I am" dialogue option bails you out without assigning the quest and optionally allows you to turn him in to the town guards.

As much of an evil old woman as Grelod the Kind is, you shouldn't have to be forced to go through killing her to be able to wipe out the Brotherhood. Turning the kid into the guards could even instigate the portion of the quest where the courier brings you the "We Know" note, thus presenting an alternative way for Astrid to confront the player about the stolen contract.

[ThomasKaira]

I can look into that. I'll add it to the to-do list.

[HeyYou]

Might also be easier to move the third portion of the forbidden legend to another dungeon, as opposed to trying to change everything for the mages college.

Maybe implement a 'special pass' to enter the college specifically to talk to the librarian, as opposed to having him at the inn, or, give the lady of the bridge the option to notify him, and then have him meet you there?

I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative to killing paar/pissing off the blades as well. After all, it has been a couple thousand years since paar was such a bad guy. You would think that since he hasn't reverted to form in all those centuries, the blades might be able to forgive him, considering his role in helping you 'save the world'. (without him, it wouldn't have happened.) Mitigating circumstances? (or maybe, I am just not happy with seeing the blades portrayed in such an unforgiving light.......)

[darthsloth74]

I'd definately like to see this happen. The game frequently offers a set of choices only to go back on itself later and offer no choice at all.

The Parthanax quest was completely silly. Why should the Dragonborn choose to follow the instructions of two dried up Blades agents whose judgement has become bitter and twisted? If they thought so highly of the main PC, why was the option to reason with them and convince them of their foolishness never presented. Or if they refused all attempts at persuasion then the option to kill them should have been there.

It was annoying following the Civil War quest only to discover that the main quest had to be started to complete, which once more leads to the spawning of Dragon attacks.

Finally I'd really like to see an even more important option implemented: I'm not the Dragonborn. Something similar to the Neravar Say Neravar mod for Morrowind. I don't want to be the saviour of Skyrim everytime I play the game, so many of the quests are linked to the MQ it limits roleplaying options. I'd also like to see character backgrounds and optional start locations like the Alternate Start mod for Oblivion.

Of course anything you can fix will be greatly appreciated all the same.

[HeyYou]

I'd definately like to see this happen. The game frequently offers a set of choices only to go back on itself later and offer no choice at all.

The Parthanax quest was completely silly. Why should the Dragonborn choose to follow the instructions of two dried up Blades agents whose judgement has become bitter and twisted? If they thought so highly of the main PC, why was the option to reason with them and convince them of their foolishness never presented. Or if they refused all attempts at persuasion then the option to kill them should have been there.

It was annoying following the Civil War quest only to discover that the main quest had to be started to complete, which once more leads to the spawning of Dragon attacks.

Finally I'd really like to see an even more important option implemented: I'm not the Dragonborn. Something similar to the Neravar Say Neravar mod for Morrowind. I don't want to be the saviour of Skyrim everytime I play the game, so many of the quests are linked to the MQ it limits roleplaying options. I'd also like to see character backgrounds and optional start locations like the Alternate Start mod for Oblivion.

Of course anything you can fix will be greatly appreciated all the same.

Considering the Ulfric uses shouts as well, maybe HE is the dragon born?

[Dollparts]

Looks good. Lemme know if you need any help.

[Ysne58]

TK, if there is anything suggested here that you don't have time to follow up on or don't want to follow up on, and no one else here want to do it, feel free to post it on my Free Form Play thread over at BethSoft. It will give other modders ideas as well.

[Arthmoor]

Finally I'd really like to see an even more important option implemented: I'm not the Dragonborn. Something similar to the Neravar Say Neravar mod for Morrowind. I don't want to be the saviour of Skyrim everytime I play the game, so many of the quests are linked to the MQ it limits roleplaying options. I'd also like to see character backgrounds and optional start locations like the Alternate Start mod for Oblivion.

I've got plans in the works for one of those once the CK is out. I can see that there are at least a few things that would overlap in function considering the main point of a alt-start mod is to avoid or delay the MQ. I wasn't aware the civil war required MQ interaction until it was brought up in one of these threads so I could see an alt-start mod as wanting to at least break that relationship.

[_echo]

Personally, most of these seem silly. Alternatives to the thieves guild and mages guild are already present, so those are taken care of. The main quest is meant to be railroaded. It is the figurehead of the whole game, and the one thing Bethesda can actually justify forcing you to do things their way. They are establishing the lore of what happens in the time period.

As for the rest, I'm not sure if you are arguing quest log tidiness or actual railroading. Just because you are given the quest does not mean you are forced to do it. Just ignore the quest. Plus it seems like you want an exit option at every step of the quest lines. Like suddenly you had a change of heart when you are on the last quest of the dark brotherhood after having murdered 10+ people.

[Ysne58]

I've got plans in the works for one of those once the CK is out. I can see that there are at least a few things that would overlap in function considering the main point of a alt-start mod is to avoid or delay the MQ. I wasn't aware the civil war required MQ interaction until it was brought up in one of these threads so I could see an alt-start mod as wanting to at least break that relationship.

I definitely want that in my game too.

[ThomasKaira]

Personally, most of these seem silly. Alternatives to the thieves guild and mages guild are already present, so those are taken care of. The main quest is meant to be railroaded. It is the figurehead of the whole game, and the one thing Bethesda can actually justify forcing you to do things their way. They are establishing the lore of what happens in the time period.

As for the rest, I'm not sure if you are arguing quest log tidiness or actual railroading. Just because you are given the quest does not mean you are forced to do it. Just ignore the quest. Plus it seems like you want an exit option at every step of the quest lines. Like suddenly you had a change of heart when you are on the last quest of the dark brotherhood after having murdered 10+ people.

And personally, I feel that it is wrong to force the player into doing something he does not want to do in a sandbox game if the choice involves a violation of character. This mod is a roleplaying enhancement, not a bugfix, the purpose is to allow people the option of doing something some other way than Bethesda is forcing them to. If you feel that way, fine. No one is forcing you to use this mod, so don't.

As for the rest, ignorance is not a valid choice IMHO. Again, just don't use this mod if you don't think it necessary. I do think it is necessary, and am going to make it regardless of what you think. As you can tell, there are plenty of people who wish to see this happen. One naysayer is not enough to put me off.

Oh, by the way, just in case everyone is forgetting, you do NOT need to be Dragonborn to Shout. Speak to the Greybeards again if you want to know what I mean, they explained it to you.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ThomasKaira

[Johnn123]

TK you don't know how how bugged I was by each of those rail roads! I will be downloading this for sure!

[Khettienna]

Personally, most of these seem silly. <snip>

We have enough REQ/WIPZ judgment and bashing at the OF already.

TK & Ysne:

I don't really have anything new to add to the existing posts here & at Bethsoft about this Wipz or the Freeform Play thread.. This was a mod I was considering doing myself when the CK came out, because I've been so frustrated with having choices made for me and not being able to dump quests that my character had no intention of completing. I'm more than a little glad and grateful you're taking it on, though, and if you need any technical help/implementation ideas, I'd be more than happy to lend support.

[Arthmoor]

Plus it seems like you want an exit option at every step of the quest lines. Like suddenly you had a change of heart when you are on the last quest of the dark brotherhood after having murdered 10+ people.

Nope, just at the initial railroading point where you're forced into doing something you had no intention of going along with.

With the DB, the railroading point is basically at the beginning when you're forced to go along with killing Grelod in order to reach the branch point. Not after you've killed 10+ people and had a change of heart. Escaping at that point should rightly have the Brotherhood members come down on you like a ton of bricks for turning traitor.

[darthsloth74]

I've got plans in the works for one of those once the CK is out. I can see that there are at least a few things that would overlap in function considering the main point of a alt-start mod is to avoid or delay the MQ. I wasn't aware the civil war required MQ interaction until it was brought up in one of these threads so I could see an alt-start mod as wanting to at least break that relationship.

Thats great to hear Arthmoor. Hopefully between you and ThomasKaira these quest/roleplaying limitations will become a thing of the past.

[Arthmoor]

Namira's quest: At the point you're told to go lure the priest into the trap you are not given an opportunity to warn him. The only valid completion of the quest is to bring him to his death. Law abiding PCs might object to the premeditated murder of a priest of Arkay.

[eloquate]

Namira's quest: At the point you're told to go lure the priest into the trap you are not given an opportunity to warn him. The only valid completion of the quest is to bring him to his death. Law abiding PCs might object to the premeditated murder of a priest of Arkay.

I would have liked the option to tell Brother Verulus, the Priest of Arkay, about Eola immediately after the encounter in the Hall of the Dead.

I could see this easily expanding into a request to confront Eola at Reachcliff Cave, or even investigating the other members of Namira's cult, but such would go far beyond a simple 'Derailed' solution.

Edit: spelling correction.

Edited December 24, 2011 by eloquate

[ThomasKaira]

Here's another one I am considering: allowing completion of the Companions' Main Quest without becoming a Werewolf.

Once Skjor tells you to meet him at the Underforge and you have been given the option. You can refuse as normal and continue to take up random quests for the Companions. If you change your mind, just go back to the Underforge and take the ritual. Eventually, if you do not return to claim your lycanthropy, (upon completion of about three more Radiant missions), Aela will meet up with you herself and request you to travel to Gallows Rock for a special job.

Choose wisely, once you arrive at Gallows Rock, you will not receive another chance to be a Werewolf.

Edited December 25, 2011 by ThomasKaira

[eloquate]

Here's another one I am considering: allowing completion of the Companions' Main Quest without becoming a Werewolf.

I also wonder whether it might be possible to finish the Thieves Guild without selling your soul to Nocturnal. My pickpocket was rather sceptical of the whole deal from the start.

Choose wisely, once you arrive at Gallows Rock, you will not receive another chance to be a Werewolf.

Perhaps, you could include it as an alternative reward to the quest for Hircine, Ill Met By Moonlight?

[daemondarque]

This rampant quest railroading has been a game-killer for me--avoiding quests or situations that a given character would not possibly agree with is like walking through a minefield. One cannot even just explore the world without falling victim to it. Find an item, read a book--and Zap! You either suck it up, or forgo your progress and reload a previous save. I am not the sort of player who resorts to having a walkthrough close at hand when playing for the first time, but in Skyrim it becomes absolutely necessary--and for me, that ruins the gaming experience. Do I dare talk to this person or not? Better check! And why Beth would even presume that every player wants to join every guild on a single playthrough is a mystery, since that adversely affects the game's replayability.(and longevity). Did they somehow forget what made their previous games great?

First thing my character did was join the Companions, because it seemed like a cool guild with a lot of history, and doing good deeds for money seemed just right, to get the feel of where I might want to go next in the game. Lo and behold, after one assignment I find out their secret... gulp ... okay, really, live and let live, just don't make me into one, and we're good. I guess. But guess what? And now I'm a member of a guild that won't give me any more assignments unless I do something unnatural. Impasse.

The mages guild assumes I'm a card-carrying member when I have only ever cast one spell (the one I needed to get inside--which I had to do to complete a random quest--and I had to waste two level-ups to get the required magicka for that.). Ditto the thieves guild. Ditto the dark brotherhood. What is this shiiite? The guilds in Oblivion at least had standards--and you had to seek them out; Skyrim drags you kicking and screaming, whether you want to or not. And the guild quests are just a small symptom of a larger malaise that infects the whole game.

By far the most frustrating and illogical quest is that of the Blades. For hundreds of years they have been spies--which means they know the value of a willing informant or inside man, and how to exploit it ... and yet they demand Paarthenax's immediate death, or they will not talk to you anymore. What? They turn their backs of the Dragonborn? Talk about being used, and lied to--all that fluff about their existence being to protect and serve was apparently nothing more than B.S. Now, it seems to me that the Thalmor are their real enemy, since members of their Order were systematically hunted down and killed (hint: not by dragons) ... and there's little doubt the threat to the Empire still exists in spite of the treaty. Having a host of dragons on your side just might be an asset? But no, the Blades are dead set on annihilating an endangered species...

Sorry for the rant, but how Bethesda can get so much so right, and still muck up roleplaying so badly is beyond me. That's the R in RPG, y'know? I like what they've done with the game world very much, but without modders, I give Skyrim's life expectancy about six months--not six years like it has been so far with Oblivion.