[RELz]/[WIPz] Oblivifall - Revenge of the Classic

[tejon]

Know that Oblivifall is exclusive to TES Alliance for now.

Okay, it was totally worth it signing up here.

One thing you can help me with, how to apply this to the races we have? I presume this cancels the birthsign guff, but do the races keep thier natural bonuses?

I've done a fair bit of work in this corner of the CS, and IMO the best solution here is to use the birthsign itself to provide the powers you're looking for. OBSE doesn't have a lot of birthsign-manipulation tools yet, but you won't actually need them; instead, create a birthsign with a single ability. That ability's script can then add or remove whatever powers you want (including vanilla racials), adjust starting stats, etc.

I think there are globals that control the skill raising speeds, if so I could edit them to make a faster/slower level speed like Daggerfall.

Correct... a few of them. I can give you all the details you could ever want. Character definition and advancement is about 90% of my modding experience, and I'm happy to be a resource for this.

On the flip side, I won't use it myself if it comes out as a truly faithful reproduction of Daggerfall's system, because the original was terribly executed and rife with exploits. Restoring the concepts has merit, but the implementation really could use some work.

Thinking about it, I don't believe adjusting the skill-up speed per Daggerfall is a good idea either. The system is so different, it's just not an accurate conversion. Perhaps the biggest difference is in the cap: Daggerfall stopped all progress when one skill hit 100. Now technically, this could be achieved in Oblivion; but are we aiming for a total conversion, or a best-of-both situation? Of course I'm slightly biased on this topic, having written a total conversion for level advancement which would be utterly incompatible with a proper Daggerfall conversion.

Cliff, I just realized that since the last time I bugged you re: Daggerfallesque mods list, I released Fizzle! which is intended as a replacement for TTT's Spell Failure. Its parameters are in line with the way Oblivion does things (e.g. cost scaling, Luck influence) whereas Spell Failure lifted the formula directly from Morrowind, so there's an argument for keeping both on the list.

EDIT: Oh, there's a page two. Cliff, yes: it's 100% possible to select your health-per-level. Trivial if the Vanilla advancement is entirely disabled; still not especially difficult even if the standard level-up screen is maintained.

[Cliffworms]

Okay, it was totally worth it signing up here.

Haha!

As soon as Losing My Religion, Daedra Summoning and Better Inns is out, it goes public. I'm simply posting some of the modules here for feedback and testing.

I've done a fair bit of work in this corner of the CS, and IMO the best solution here is to use the birthsign itself to provide the powers you're looking for. OBSE doesn't have a lot of birthsign-manipulation tools yet, but you won't actually need them; instead, create a birthsign with a single ability. That ability's script can then add or remove whatever powers you want (including vanilla racials), adjust starting stats, etc.

I don't quite get what you mean here.

Are you saying that a scripted ability of a birthsign could make the addition/removal of advantages or disadvantages be easier? That the scripted ability would bring a menu, somehow?

Correct... a few of them. I can give you all the details you could ever want. Character definition and advancement is about 90% of my modding experience, and I'm happy to be a resource for this.

On the flip side, I won't use it myself if it comes out as a truly faithful reproduction of Daggerfall's system, because the original was terribly executed and rife with exploits. Restoring the concepts has merit, but the implementation really could use some work.

You are indeed an excellent resources for character leveling and advancement. I've been using nGCD since you released it.

Well I know that the Advantages/Disadvantages will be reworked, as it was bugged in Daggerfall.

You could select Immune to Paralysis if you were an High Elf, who are naturally immune to paralysis.

Or you could select "Inability to Cast magic" along with "Darkness Powered Magery" and "Light Powered Magery" and "Inability to Regen Spell Points", which allowed you to level up as fast as lighting with 30 HP bonus per level and a multitude of advantages.

Thinking about it, I don't believe adjusting the skill-up speed per Daggerfall is a good idea either. The system is so different, it's just not an accurate conversion. Perhaps the biggest difference is in the cap: Daggerfall stopped all progress when one skill hit 100. Now technically, this could be achieved in Oblivion; but are we aiming for a total conversion, or a best-of-both situation? Of course I'm slightly biased on this topic, having written a total conversion for level advancement which would be utterly incompatible with a proper Daggerfall conversion.

Personally, my ideal would be to have the exact level up and skill system of Daggerfall, but that can't be possible. Daggerfall had 4 category of skills for the character : "Major", "Minor", "Misc", "The rest". You could level up "The Rest" and "Misc" skills to 100% and still level up the rest to 100%, as soon as a Major or Minor skill goes to 100%... if I recall correctly. It is flawed, but I believe it is better than Oblivion where you can be a master of everything.

So I'm still unsure if I'll implement the skill cap aspect, but being able to level up faster/slower depending on your HP bonus and advantages/disadvantages would be great indeed.

By the way, tejon, it's great that you are giving feedback on a mod that will be utterly incompatible with nGCD.

Cliff, I just realized that since the last time I bugged you re: Daggerfallesque mods list, I released Fizzle! which is intended as a replacement for TTT's Spell Failure. Its parameters are in line with the way Oblivion does things (e.g. cost scaling, Luck influence) whereas Spell Failure lifted the formula directly from Morrowind, so there's an argument for keeping both on the list.

Thanks for letting me know of your release! I'll add it on the next update...which should be around the 9 or 10 of August.

EDIT: Oh, there's a page two. Cliff, yes: it's 100% possible to select your health-per-level. Trivial if the Vanilla advancement is entirely disabled; still not especially difficult even if the standard level-up screen is maintained.

Great! But would it be possible to get the same formulae as Daggerfall? Where the health-per-level you choose is the default value, and you also get a bonus depending on your Endurance.

[tejon]

Are you saying that a scripted ability of a birthsign could make the addition/removal of advantages or disadvantages be easier? That the scripted ability would bring a menu, somehow?

Precisely. Actually, the best technical implementation is a script on a token, which is applied by the script on the birthsign; but that's just details.

Spells (including powers and abilities) which are added when you select a race or birthsign are exactly that: added when you select a race or birthsign. After the selection menu closes, nothing keeps them there except for the fact that normally nothing removes them. Set up a birthsign with a scripted ability and you kill two birds with one stone: the script can do anything any other script could, and you've filled the birthsign slot, which guarantees nothing else will do so and prevents you having to find some other work-around there.

Daggerfall had 4 category of skills for the character : "Major", "Minor", "Misc", "The rest". You could level up "The Rest" and "Misc" skills to 100% and still level up the rest to 100%, as soon as a Major or Minor skill goes to 100%... if I recall correctly.

My recollection is that major skills were the only ones which could reach 100 at all. Minors were capped at 90, Misc at 80, the rest at 70. So it really was the first skill to 100... you just didn't have to worry about accidentally doing it with Run. (Unless you made that major. Generally a bad idea. Which was also a flaw... any skill should be worth putting in any slot, I think.)

This actually could be done in Oblivion. You can stop a skill from advancing by setting its use rates to zero. And we have four OBSE-detectable categories to work with: Major, Specialization, Both, and Neither. By default, all of these have different advancement rates. nGCD grants them different attribute and level influence, so I can guarantee all the functions are available to set caps very similar to Daggerfall, if not quite identical!

It is flawed, but I believe it is better than Oblivion where you can be a master of everything.

I agree... my current solution is Progress's Global Slowdown module, but I've actually got a better idea. It's not remotely Daggerfall-like and might wind up winning the record for Fewest Downloads Ever, and at the moment there's no truly clean way to implement it, but IMO skill decay is the best and most realistic answer.

So I'm still unsure if I'll implement the skill cap aspect, but being able to level up faster/slower depending on your HP bonus and advantages/disadvantages would be great indeed.

A better solution might be, instead of skill advancement speed, to change the number of skills required for a level-up. This would create something closer to the Daggerfall balance point, where your ultimate reward for gimping out the basic character abilities was a higher advancement cap. The downside of this is the world scaling... if the user has a static-scaling mod in place it's fine, but otherwise gaining levels too fast is actually a detriment.

By the way, tejon, it's great that you are giving feedback on a mod that will be utterly incompatible with nGCD.

Hehe... design is fun! And it's so different that I can just look at it as a completely different game, rather than competition.

Great! But would it be possible to get the same formulae as Daggerfall? Where the health-per-level you choose is the default value, and you also get a bonus depending on your Endurance.

Yep! Any formula is possible. You can even have a good old-fashioned die roll if you want.

[DaMage]

Glad to have you here tejón, you'll be useful when I get to working on this again....another week gone by still no laptop....

Anyway, if anyone can tell me the best way to work in the slider/level up speed thing I shouldnt have to many diffeculties in it, expect for specifics on the character development stuff.

[tejon]

Anyway, if anyone can tell me the best way to work in the slider/level up speed thing I shouldnt have to many diffeculties in it, expect for specifics on the character development stuff.

Read the comments in Progress.ini, the advancement formulas are all explained there. Changing them in real time works. Speaking of which, for general compatibility purposes making this a Progress plug-in is probably a good idea; the purpose of Progress.esm is to let multiple mods keep track of whether a given change is temporary or permanent!

[Section_31]

Pffft......enough technical chat. I demand progress immediately!

[Cliffworms]

Precisely. Actually, the best technical implementation is a script on a token, which is applied by the script on the birthsign; but that's just details.

Spells (including powers and abilities) which are added when you select a race or birthsign are exactly that: added when you select a race or birthsign. After the selection menu closes, nothing keeps them there except for the fact that normally nothing removes them. Set up a birthsign with a scripted ability and you kill two birds with one stone: the script can do anything any other script could, and you've filled the birthsign slot, which guarantees nothing else will do so and prevents you having to find some other work-around there.

I wonder, though, when you talk about birthsigns, are you saying that each advantages/disadvantages should have their own "birthsign"? Or are you saying that the script of the selection of ADV/DIS should be initiated by a birthsign? I believe it's the second way, but I want to be sure.

How I'm thinking to see the ADV/DIS + Health Per Level thing done is like this :

In Daggerfall, the dagger descend/ascend depending on your ADV/DIS and Health Per Level. If the dagger was in the red zones, the opposites, you had to modify your ADV/DIS or Health Per Level.

So, for Oblivifall.

If we take a scale of 50 and say that the default position of the "dagger" is 25.

Each Advantage would rise the number and the amount would depend on the importantce of the advantage. (Immunity being the best advantages)

Each Disadvantage would do the opposite. Substract the number of points.

Health per level would rise or substract points depending on the number of HP you choose.

Then, let's say that 0-10 & 40-50 are the "red zones". If the number goes in those range, the player must remove/add ADV/DIS or Health-Per-Level to get to more than 10 or less than 40.

I suppose that would work. The number range is likely to change. 50 is just a number I threw out.

Also, the player may choose a maximum of 7 ADV and DIS.

My recollection is that major skills were the only ones which could reach 100 at all. Minors were capped at 90, Misc at 80, the rest at 70. So it really was the first skill to 100... you just didn't have to worry about accidentally doing it with Run. (Unless you made that major. Generally a bad idea. Which was also a flaw... any skill should be worth putting in any slot, I think.)

This actually could be done in Oblivion. You can stop a skill from advancing by setting its use rates to zero. And we have four OBSE-detectable categories to work with: Major, Specialization, Both, and Neither. By default, all of these have different advancement rates. nGCD grants them different attribute and level influence, so I can guarantee all the functions are available to set caps very similar to Daggerfall, if not quite identical!

You can reach 100 in any skill, no matter the skill category. Like you said, Run is the best example, since most characters have it at 100 when they are level 6 or 7.

If OBSE can indeed help to create a system similar to Daggerfall, then all the better!

I agree... my current solution is Progress's Global Slowdown module, but I've actually got a better idea. It's not remotely Daggerfall-like and might wind up winning the record for Fewest Downloads Ever, and at the moment there's no truly clean way to implement it, but IMO skill decay is the best and most realistic answer.

A better solution might be, instead of skill advancement speed, to change the number of skills required for a level-up. This would create something closer to the Daggerfall balance point, where your ultimate reward for gimping out the basic character abilities was a higher advancement cap. The downside of this is the world scaling... if the user has a static-scaling mod in place it's fine, but otherwise gaining levels too fast is actually a detriment.

Oh, yes, reducing/adding the number of required skill advancements was what I had in mind. With the fastest way being 5 instead of 10, and the longest being 15. It will be to the player's choice to see if he's willing to level up too fast and, thus, facing dangers earlier, or not. Actually, it would be a useful disadvantage of leveling up too fast.

Hehe... design is fun! And it's so different that I can just look at it as a completely different game, rather than competition.

Great thinking! Modding is cooperation after all, not competition. We're doing this for fun, we're not businessmen.

Yep! Any formula is possible. You can even have a good old-fashioned die roll if you want.

Hurray for die rolls! I love die rolls.

Glad to have you here tejón, you'll be useful when I get to working on this again....another week gone by still no laptop....

Anyway, if anyone can tell me the best way to work in the slider/level up speed thing I shouldnt have to many diffeculties in it, expect for specifics on the character development stuff.

What info do you need for "specifics character development stuff?"

The character generation steps I'd like to include are the following :

1. Name/Race/Sex/Face selection (of course)

2. Select your Class by choosing from the list or answering the 10 classic questions. (Amongst the selection is the "Custom" class, if it's possible to let the player choose his major skills with the script.)

3. If the player chose a pre-made class, skip to step 8. If the player took Custom class, next step.

4. Stat editing.

5. Skill selection

6. Advantage/Disadvantage/Health Per Level

7. Reputation (Basicly, improving or reducing the disposition for the associated Oblivion vanilla factions with the player)

8. Answer background questions for inventory/stat/skill/reputation changes.

9. Distribute bonus stat points.

10. Distribute skill points.

11. Select your starting location (Including Privateer's Hold )

12. Done!

Read the comments in Progress.ini, the advancement formulas are all explained there. Changing them in real time works. Speaking of which, for general compatibility purposes making this a Progress plug-in is probably a good idea; the purpose of Progress.esm is to let multiple mods keep track of whether a given change is temporary or permanent!

That is most useful to know indeed.

Pffft......enough technical chat. I demand progress immediately!

Technical chat is required if progress is to be made, young padawan!

As for progress news, the schedules are being done at the Shrine of Kynareth. The knights train, patrol, pray or attend to their meetings at the square table.

Since the shrine is outside, if it rains the worshippers will gather inside the small chapel to attend to the daily service.

In other news, I've decided to remove every altars to the nine divines other than the one worshipped in his/her chapel. I like the decoration I made with them, but it didn't make sense that the altars would be there if I want to dissociate the Nine Divines.

So, if you want to have to receive the blessing from a god, you will need to visit his/her chapel instead of any chapel.

[tejon]

Or are you saying that the script of the selection of ADV/DIS should be initiated by a birthsign?

Yeah, this one. The whole system can be wrapped into a birthsign. This first and foremost guarantees that the player doesn't screw up balance by tossing a birthsign on top of it since the slot's already filled; but also, it means that you can just leave this mod active whether you're using it or not. When you want to start a character Daggerfall-style, select the Daggerfall Birthsign!

[Cliffworms]

Excellent idea then! This will ensure full compatibility with other mods.

[DaMage]

Thats a great idea, solves a few issue i did have.

[StarX]

Just a heads up for awesomeness! Your post in the Witchhunter Armor thread lured me to this topic. These are very interresting ideas and features. Keep up te good work!

[Cliffworms]

Just a heads up for awesomeness! Your post in the Witchhunter Armor thread lured me to this topic. These are very interresting ideas and features. Keep up te good work!

Thanks! As soon as I receive every modders' permissions for the use of their armors/clothing, I'll start posting screenshots of the patrons. Most of them are equipped with community-made resources.

Concerning Losing My Religion, just a thing to note. You will be able to join one of the religious order or one of the knightly orders, but there will not be any missions, nor the possibility of advancing in rank. The benefits of joining is simply having access to the quarters of the religious/knightly order and for roleplaying.

Joining a knightly order gets you a suit of armor of the religion and a horse, joining a religion gets you a robe. It also means you'll benefit from lower prices for the services, and you'll get the reputation bonuses/maluses associated to the faction.

Not everyone can join these factions. Only aspiring members that meet their skill/stat requirements can. (No barbarian being a priest for a religion. No mage being a knight)

And you can only join one religion or one knightly order, of course.

I would love to add quests, but that would be after the mod is released. And I'm not talking about a full questline like the Dark Brotherhood or the other guilds, more like randomized quests "à la Daggerfall".

In other news, I won't release the video trailer yet. Instead, I will release short videos showing each module. Such as a video showcasing the chapel interiors, an evening at the local tavern, summoning a Daedric Lord with the Mages Guild, etc.

[DaMage]

I was thinking about this just now, and came to the conclusion that if you finish all these mods and put them together you'll get an overhaul.

So why not work on a creature overhual too, like make the dreaded ancient vampires and liches, and make them like in daggerfall, if you meet the at low levels you'll be dead before you know it, meet them at higher levels and you will still want to run away at times. Redevelop for rare items (like small chance of daedric at whatever level) but still possible.

Then you can add the wagons so that you can fill them up when you fill up in a dungeon.

I know thats a bit of a pipe dream though, I cant really expect it to happen.

[Cliffworms]

I was thinking about this just now, and came to the conclusion that if you finish all these mods and put them together you'll get an overhaul.

So why not work on a creature overhual too, like make the dreaded ancient vampires and liches, and make them like in daggerfall, if you meet the at low levels you'll be dead before you know it, meet them at higher levels and you will still want to run away at times. Redevelop for rare items (like small chance of daedric at whatever level) but still possible.

Then you can add the wagons so that you can fill them up when you fill up in a dungeon.

I know thats a bit of a pipe dream though, I cant really expect it to happen.

Hehe excellent ideas here.

First I'll focus on finishing LMR, Better Inns and Daedra Summoning. Then I'll see what I'll work on next.

I'd have to be very careful when editing new creatures and leveled list, as I'd like it to be compatible with the other overhauls.

It was in my plans, concerning creatures, to bring the abilities and resistances of Daggerfall's. For instance, a Daedroth in Daggerfall can only be hit with mithril or better, can cast lighting, spell shield etc.

Would it be possible with OBSE to provide immunity to certain type of weapon materials? And if yes, how would it work with modded weaponry?

I'd love to see many of Daggerfall's creatures back, such as the Centaur, Lamia, Scorpion, mummy, harpies, iron atronaches, etc.

[tejon]

It was in my plans, concerning creatures, to bring the abilities and resistances of Daggerfall's. For instance, a Daedroth in Daggerfall can only be hit with mithril or better, can cast lighting, spell shield etc.

Would it be possible with OBSE to provide immunity to certain type of weapon materials? And if yes, how would it work with modded weaponry?

There's a built-in effect called "resist normal weapons," and there's a checkbox for each weapon saying whether or not it's "normal." By default only silver and daedric pierce this resistance. Enchantments go around it, but only the actual enchantment... a steel claymore with fire damage will do the fire damage, but not the steel damage.

You can check the box for any weapon in the CS, and with OBSE you can toggle it during gameplay, so technically the behavior you're looking for could be achieved. The question is just how much effort it would take to increase the complexity level so that, for instance, silver can hit a ghost but not a daedroth. Other than that checkbox and the item's text name, there's no record for what material an item is made of. It would be a challenge, but probably not impossible.

I think there's a new function coming in 0019 (could have slipped into 0018, doubt it but I'll check) which will help tremendously, especially with mod compatibility; currently you can script an actor with an OnHit effect (triggers on any weapon, doesn't tell you what triggered it), or with OnHitWith (triggers on one specific weapon, so you'd have to write such a block for every specific relevant weapon). There's talk of adding a function for use in regular OnHit blocks which tells you what the striking implement was.

[Zaldir]

This looks like a fantastic mod project!

[Mannimagnus]

I already have a conflict to report, im making a mod which makes everyone Sheogorath worshiping fanatics, changes all the chapels and city guides, and replaces all in game statues with statues of him, so that will conflict with your religion mod, and also their is a lore conflict, Kynareth's shrine is added with K.O.T.N., so your one would make too, so that is a slight lore conflict.

but everything is great!, great work!, was just saying the two conflicts.

[Cliffworms]

I already have a conflict to report, im making a mod which makes everyone Sheogorath worshiping fanatics, changes all the chapels and city guides, and replaces all in game statues with statues of him, so that will conflict with your religion mod, and also their is a lore conflict, Kynareth's shrine is added with K.O.T.N., so your one would make too, so that is a slight lore conflict.

but everything is great!, great work!, was just saying the two conflicts.

Everyone worshipping Sheogorath?

This is madness!

Madness?

This is...Mannimagnus' mod!

Hehe then yes both our mod will conflict, but modding is not competition, but cooperation. I wish you success with your mod!

As for the Shrine of Kynareth, yes KOTN adds a shrine to Kynareth.

But...

Bethesda decided to offer this shrine for the glory of Kynareth.

A statue, flowers, 2 mushrooms, lectern and 3 NPCs worshipping there. Not very Lore Friendly if you ask me. At least, not Lore Friendly if that's the sole worshipping place of poor Kynareth. Doesn't make much sense. It's the same layout as a Daedric Shrine.

I'm offering Kynareth a shrine worthy of her name and status in the religion. She's the goddess of nature and air, and I'm giving it all. Trees, tamed animals, bright green grass, her own chapel, houses for the priests and the Kynaran Knights' stronghold not too far from there. Now THAT's something to make Kynareth happy.

So I'm not breaking lore, I'm patching up the lore holes Bethesda made.

@Tejon : Ouch! That would be a long process, even with OBSE 19. Oh well, I guess the resistances are fine as they are.

@Zaldir : Thanks!

[Mannimagnus]

I wish you luck on your mod too!

btw, if you hav'nt already made the holiday part, then you dont need to, look here:

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20525

just so ya know!.

[Cliffworms]

New screenshots have been added to the gallery.

Wandering inside the halls of the School of Julianos.

The library, used by its followers.

The Arkay Undercroft has been re-designed using Barabus' Crypt tileset. The god of the Cycle of Life and Death now has an Undercroft worthy of its name.

Arkay watches over his dead.

Going further inside the Undercroft.

Numerous coffins fill the Undercroft

A tomb worthy of a noble servant of the Empire. Who could it be?

The tomb of the Countess of Cheydinhal, worthy of her fame.

An hall of columns.

I wish you luck on your mod too!

btw, if you hav'nt already made the holiday part, then you dont need to, look here:

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20525

just so ya know!.

Yep I know about that one. In fact, I'll ask the author if I can use it as the "skeleton" of the Holiday mod, since his is basicly a script telling you it's this or that holyday, but without giving the game effects they involve (Except for two holydays)

[StarX]

Cliff, I thought it'd be better to post here than on the BGS forums, as the BGS topics will get spammed a lot more. I finished the concept of the paladinarmor for The Order of the Lilly (Dibella). There will probably be some changes to the cuirass texture to make the Lilly symbol stand out more and an optional cape that fits the armor. Maybe I need to create a seperate thread in a later stage to keep things organized.

Have a look at the first concept and let me know what you (and maybe the other TESA folks) think:

[Cliffworms]

Very beautiful work, StarX! And that was quick!

I like the white color you used. The armor of the Order must be white and beautiful, like the godess Dibella.

Three things I'd like to note, texture-wise:

- The Imperial Dragon symbol on the belt should be changed to the symbol of the Order, if possible. The dragon is the symbol of Talos.

- Is it possible to remove the lower parts of the cuirass? I can't find the english words for them, but I'm talking about the multiple straps of armor at the bottom, right before the greaves. Personally, I believe that removing these straps would remove the simlitude between the cuirass and the Imperial Legion cuirass.

- Are you going to apply a glow effect on the texture? (Maybe it simply doesn't show in the software and only in-game. )

Thank you very much StarX. I really appreciate the work you've done.

[Si-Shen]

O.O thats some LOVELY armour.

[grond]

I agree - how I'd love to get that armor all splashed up with the blood of evildoers. I love those straps Cliff, and I'd never mistake this armor for the Imperial Legion, but it's your baby - just my

[Yevic]

Looks awesome!