Reclaiming Sancre Tor: Support

[DarkRider]

bug tracker? Oh, yes, forgot that. Sorry for misplaced post.

May I ask about this quest?

sunken city quest, get water stone, leave, 'feel bad leaving children there." Even when main quest is done, this quest remains 'incomplete.' IS this glitch? Or is there a way to get the kids out of sunken city? And if so, a tip please to point in right direction.

There is a side quest called A Family Affair that allows you to resolve that situation and close the Water Kingdom quest. Look for Conal Corsair, he owns a manor house just outside Skingrad.

[Dwip]

@Ysne - Oh, I found it long since. All I had to do was fall off a mountain...

A couple more oddities. Why do I attract them? I dunno.

- I know I've been a pain about this, but it would be helpful if, when Bruin tells me to go say goodbye to Rowan, if the journal entry told me where I needed to meet Bruin afterwards. Of course he told me, but since I'm me and can't keep anything in memory longer than 5 seconds, I spent 10 minutes wandering around ST looking for him. Alternately, I guess I could take up a collection to get my brain some more RAM?

- I know I've also been a pain about map markers, but perhaps the stables (instead of/besides the gates as previously advocated to DarkRider)? The reasoning is this: you know how when you fast travel, your horse appears next to you? When you fast travel to the interior of ST, I dunno WHERE my horse goes, but it wasn't there. Since I wanted to keep my current horse while traveling with Bruin, I had to walk up to Ninendava, pop that marker, then fast travel to it to get my horse. Rather keep it at ST if possible, and of course this has applications besides just that one quest. Not a big deal, but thought I'd suggest it.

- I'm not sure if this is an RST thing or what it is, precisely, but when Bruin first got on his horse, he went completely invisible for no apparent reason. Fast traveling to Ninendava fixed that, but it was very strange. Not sure if I just found some crazy, crazy Oblivion horse bug or what (wouldn't be the first time...), but thought I'd mention it.

- Arden Todd, the Blades cavalry guy north of Chorrol near Brise, is just standing there, in the middle of the road, sitting on his horse. Won't move or do anything. I went up and down the road with Bruin and Ginny several times, and the Legion guy appeared to work fine, so apparently just him. Only thing I have remotely in the area is UL Chorrol Hinterlands.

- Speaking of Homer, there was a point during the interrogation where he actually got up and tried to fight me. I ended up yielding, he accepted, and it worked as normal after that point. Not sure if this is expected behavior or not.

[DarkRider]

A couple more oddities. Why do I attract them? I dunno.

I dunno, we might have to limit you to a daily quota

- I know I've been a pain about this, but it would be helpful if, when Bruin tells me to go say goodbye to Rowan, if the journal entry told me where I needed to meet Bruin afterwards. Of course he told me, but since I'm me and can't keep anything in memory longer than 5 seconds, I spent 10 minutes wandering around ST looking for him. Alternately, I guess I could take up a collection to get my brain some more RAM?

I don't believe in hand holding via journal entries, so I try to give what's absolutely necessary, and give the players credit for paying attention. If you can't remember that he's meeting you at the stable outside....get a postit.

- I know I've also been a pain about map markers, but perhaps the stables (instead of/besides the gates as previously advocated to DarkRider)? The reasoning is this: you know how when you fast travel, your horse appears next to you? When you fast travel to the interior of ST, I dunno WHERE my horse goes, but it wasn't there. Since I wanted to keep my current horse while traveling with Bruin, I had to walk up to Ninendava, pop that marker, then fast travel to it to get my horse. Rather keep it at ST if possible, and of course this has applications besides just that one quest. Not a big deal, but thought I'd suggest it.

The complex is very small compared to an actual city and all those gates mapmarked crowd the map there, that's why I reduced it to two, one inside one outside. I did add a stable map marker in this latest version though. That was just left out on accident.

- I'm not sure if this is an RST thing or what it is, precisely, but when Bruin first got on his horse, he went completely invisible for no apparent reason. Fast traveling to Ninendava fixed that, but it was very strange. Not sure if I just found some crazy, crazy Oblivion horse bug or what (wouldn't be the first time...), but thought I'd mention it.

Nothing I've ever seen in RST

- Arden Todd, the Blades cavalry guy north of Chorrol near Brise, is just standing there, in the middle of the road, sitting on his horse. Won't move or do anything. I went up and down the road with Bruin and Ginny several times, and the Legion guy appeared to work fine, so apparently just him. Only thing I have remotely in the area is UL Chorrol Hinterlands.

Could be AI limit reached, but I'll take a look.

- Speaking of Homer, there was a point during the interrogation where he actually got up and tried to fight me. I ended up yielding, he accepted, and it worked as normal after that point. Not sure if this is expected behavior or not.

That is not planned, but I was aware of it's possibility, I thought it still worked with the sequence so didn't fuss over it.

[Dwip]

I dunno, we might have to limit you to a daily quota

You're in luck, I probably won't get to play RST for a couple days, so we can even things out a bit.

Which is a shame, since I'm in the good part now.

I don't believe in hand holding via journal entries, so I try to give what's absolutely necessary, and give the players credit for paying attention. If you can't remember that he's meeting you at the stable outside....get a postit.

Well, yahbut, and what I'm going to say also applies to what I brought up earlier about journaling the various "villager tells you to go talk to Master Thatguy in Sumdood's House about the Pink Elephant Warrior" stages that currently aren't:

- There's zero value add for the player here. Is the focus of RST sending me on cool quests, or is the focus of RST making the player play Trivial Persuit? The latter approach isn't rewarding the player in any meaningful sense, it's penalizing them by forcing them to run all over the place and waste a bunch of playing time where they're not having exciting adventures as a Blades apprentice.

It'd be one thing if it was a maze or a treasure hunt or remembering some thing to start a sidequest, and on that note I'm kind of surprised you didn't use the secret black mesh to hide the minimap on the whole Void Warrior dungeon, but this? This is just some dude hanging out in public.

- I don't need to have a post-it handy for exceedingly minor details like where to meet a dude in any other quest in Oblivion or most/almost all mods. Chances that I will expect to need to do this: basically zero. If this was 1991, well, ok. However.

- There's an entirely non-impossible chance that I'm going to get distracted mid-speech and I'll miss something. Somebody walks in the room or the phone rings and I'm basically done and it's reload a save time. Or you could be like me generally, and never mind how much attention you were paying (and I was!), you'll forget in short order anyway. Or, supposing I have to stop right then and there, and I come back two days later and I'm like

- I'm not asking for hand holding, here. Don't need a quest marker, don't need a big glowing red aura around the dude, I just want to know where he said he'd be. I'm asking for like 8-10 words on an existing very short journal entry. "Afterwards I need to meet Bruin at the stables" or some such.

- I'm not asking for anything you aren't already doing in the same quest, and I quote: "I have collected everything on the horse seller's list at last. Time to return to the Floating Flask and report to Bruin." Which, you'd think I'd remember where he was, since I was just physically there doing stuff, and I was paying attention... Also, shouldn't that be the Foaming Flask? aaRCMQ03, stage 20.

Milage may vary, I gather, but that's the thought process I'm using.

The complex is very small compared to an actual city and all those gates mapmarked crowd the map there, that's why I reduced it to two, one inside one outside. I did add a stable map marker in this latest version though. That was just left out on accident.

Nothing I've ever seen in RST

Yeah, I dunno. Probably some crazy Oblivion thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there on the off chance anybody else ran into it, it won't just be the one crazy guy - it'll be the one crazy guy and whoever else reports it.

That reminds me, though. Speaking of Bruin. It would be moderately helpful if I had a way to find/track the dude when he's riding his horse with me. He absolutely loves to go chasing off into the woods if he sees some random monster, and I'm forever turning around and going "Wait, where did Bruin go?" and then having to go off searching the hills for a few minutes. Sometimes he comes back, but sometimes he gets stuck deciding if he's going to mount his horse or not. There's something like 8 or 10 spots just on the road from ST->Bruma->IC, and another couple just going to Chorrol, so it's not an infrequent occurence.

Re: other two, ok.

[DarkRider]

Well journal entries are vastly subjective, seriously. I think there's plenty, you don't, some will agree with you, some with me. Some may fall into the third camp of thinking there's too many as it is. There's no way for me to know all the places where you personally are going to want a journal update. In this case, I don't think it's warranted, but I'll add it just to check it off.

[Dwip]

There's no way for me to know all the places where you personally are going to want a journal update.

Here's the guideline: At time of journal entry, do I have in the journal enough info to go to the task location, do the task, and then move on to the next part? If so, we're good. If not, we're not good. That's pretty much it, and I'm trying to only call you on places that isn't the case.

Done now, I'll leave you be.

(I've always wanted to use that smiley...)

[Elanaahova]

I guess i'm one of those people who do read and listen, but don't always remember. I'm looking for you know who's body, left in a shallow grave, using a special shovel loaned to me. The only clue I have in that I will 'remember' it from a long time ago. OK,

i was one of the accursed ones who ditched her body and ran with the stones. Ok. We were coming from the IC to Sacre Tor, and probably ditched the body near the road. Ok which road near Sacre tor? How know where? Ivy is associated with her. Maybe? But walking up and down all the land forms, hoping to get a dig symbol, is not a hunt to me, but an exercise in boredom. The set of scales i dug up was nice...lol. (Sorry, just too wide open a search...). OK, I go to wiki. Says body is somewhere around a particular dungeon. OK, cool. Says its in a patch of white ivy. OK, but I'm using Lush and gaudy... have no idea what ivy looks like (even in vanilla tes4).

May I ask, please, for something a bit more specific to get pointed in the right direction. Thanks....

[DarkRider]

(I've always wanted to use that smiley...)

It's excellent in unexpected places. This one too

[DarkRider]

May I ask, please, for something a bit more specific to get pointed in the right direction. Thanks....

Sound like you already gathered the gist of it from your post but okay, try this.

There are many dig spots in and around Sancre Tor, lots of clutter, gold, gems etc out there to dig up. The dig spots are sort of hard stones covered in ivy, green leafy stuff sometimes with blue or purple flowers, in that area, not a whole lot of green so they do stand out a bit. THE spot is the only one with white flowers on the ivy, it's near Shadow's Rest which is along the only one road leading directly from ST to the IC.

[Arthmoor]

When it rains, it pours:

I'm at the dock where the ship to the Isle of Half Light should be. I've found the ghost lamp. BTW, Dwip's rant about journal entries? It could use this - I forgot entirely what I was supposed to find when I got there and the guys who live at the coast guard station had no information. Anyway, the lamp was wicked cool and led me out across to the island where Vile Lair is and then across the bay to another island. Ok. We're there. Nothing more happened and I'm given to expect a ghost ship or something.

The problem here is this. Everything there is parented to the ghost ship. However there are no script commands that the CS or TES4Edit can find to enable the ship. Hence, the ship can never become visible since it's reference is never called on.

And yes, Dwip's general point about journal entries should be taken to heart. I understand where you're going with this and have myself tried to impose similar conditions in my earlier mods. It didn't end well. I usually had more questions about stuff than I was hoping for. I got stuck on the same thing with Bruin that Dwip did - I simply didn't recall where he said he was going to wait and gave up searching the city and was on my way to leave when there he was.

I know it seems somewhat harsh, but I gave up the desire to keep notepads filled with clues after the Ultima series. This is part of why I've never managed to finish Ayleid Steps either. Not enough stuff in the journal now for me to even remember what I was doing. Windfall had this problem in spades and I had to guess at random on where to resume that quest when I picked it up several months later because the journals had no info and the structure of the mod made scouring the CS for clues almost impossible. I stumbled over my objective there entirely at random. I very nearly chucked Windfall out of my load order before completing it because of this. I don't want RST to end up being the next victim of this problem - and I'll be totally frank - it's already getting that way because I've had to stop, exit, check the wiki, and when that doesn't help check the CS instead in order to know what I missed.

I am with you on the desire to leave out the Bethesda GPS System though. I don't much care for it except in cases where you should absolutely know where the target is anyway.

[Elanaahova]

When it rains, it pours:

I'm at the dock where the ship to the Isle of Half Light should be. I've found the ghost lamp. BTW, Dwip's rant about journal entries? It could use this - I forgot entirely what I was supposed to find when I got there and the guys who live at the coast guard station had no information. Anyway, the lamp was wicked cool and led me out across to the island where Vile Lair is and then across the bay to another island. Ok. We're there. Nothing more happened and I'm given to expect a ghost ship or something.

The problem here is this. Everything there is parented to the ghost ship. However there are no script commands that the CS or TES4Edit can find to enable the ship. Hence, the ship can never become visible since it's reference is never called on.

And yes, Dwip's general point about journal entries should be taken to heart. I understand where you're going with this and have myself tried to impose similar conditions in my earlier mods. It didn't end well. I usually had more questions about stuff than I was hoping for. I got stuck on the same thing with Bruin that Dwip did - I simply didn't recall where he said he was going to wait and gave up searching the city and was on my way to leave when there he was.

I know it seems somewhat harsh, but I gave up the desire to keep notepads filled with clues after the Ultima series. This is part of why I've never managed to finish Ayleid Steps either. Not enough stuff in the journal now for me to even remember what I was doing. Windfall had this problem in spades and I had to guess at random on where to resume that quest when I picked it up several months later because the journals had no info and the structure of the mod made scouring the CS for clues almost impossible. I stumbled over my objective there entirely at random. I very nearly chucked Windfall out of my load order before completing it because of this. I don't want RST to end up being the next victim of this problem - and I'll be totally frank - it's already getting that way because I've had to stop, exit, check the wiki, and when that doesn't help check the CS instead in order to know what I missed.

I am with you on the desire to leave out the Bethesda GPS System though. I don't much care for it except in cases where you should absolutely know where the target is anyway.

I agree with this. One of the joys I thought PC would bring was NOT having to keep volumes of hand written notes, etc. when playing. I don't like TES4's vanilla hand holding. But a mod full of quests where the clues are buried amid vast amounts of books, dialog, etc., with no automated method of retrieving this data, when it becomes clearer whats important punishes players who don't have awesome memories. I have been frustrated, a number of times, with this in RST. Also, players need a primer just to know how to begin. Get torches if dungeons are dark, cause they won't be issued. (Military brass all have infravision, i guess.) Know that activators, many times, don't show... (are invisible). For me, this makes much of the game click-fest city (not like). And that's not what I seek in an adventure. I don't want to struggle with the system, or the interface... RST is so close to being a classic. But clickfesting, and way-to-broad ranging 'hunts' diminish the other fabulous quests, scripting, design, graphics, and storytelling here. Finally, with so many new locations added, out of town manors, etc., perhaps an in-game-map, or an in-game-guide about these added locations would diminish players need to constantly access on line faq, etc. Certainly, the champion of Cyrodiil has enough good will to ask locals where things are (manor by skingrad, imperial manor, new apartment in IC, engineering office.

[DarkRider]

When it rains, it pours:

I'm at the dock where the ship to the Isle of Half Light should be. I've found the ghost lamp. BTW, Dwip's rant about journal entries? It could use this - I forgot entirely what I was supposed to find when I got there and the guys who live at the coast guard station had no information. Anyway, the lamp was wicked cool and led me out across to the island where Vile Lair is and then across the bay to another island. Ok. We're there. Nothing more happened and I'm given to expect a ghost ship or something.

The problem here is this. Everything there is parented to the ghost ship. However there are no script commands that the CS or TES4Edit can find to enable the ship. Hence, the ship can never become visible since it's reference is never called on.

Yep, been pouring a lot.

With the exception of a single report of a pathing mod conflict in this area, it seems to be working for most folks so something must be enabling it.

The lamp reaches the ruined dock and lights the lantern there that updates the quest stage and a tracking global. The ship then enables/disables itself on a script similar to a streetlight script. It shows up from midnight till dawn. If you miss it you have to wait for the next one. Nothing creepy about a ghost ship at noon.

And yes, Dwip's general point about journal entries should be taken to heart.

I got it when Dwip said it, I'll take a look when/if I ever dig myself out from under everything else. It was one of the things I asked testers to report on in Beta and any missing journal entries they asked for were added before release, so it's not like I'm deliberately being obtuse about it.

[Elanaahova]

Thanks for tip on finding the ditched body. Sorry it did not help me. So I should be look at rocks covered in flora, not 'dirt?' I still don't know if Lush and gaudy kept those ivy white. I have been up and down the road, and the adjoining areas several times. No white flowers anywhere. Oh, well. Will go do something else.... RST is so close to being a classic....

[DarkRider]

I agree with this.

Okay, Players. You have spoken. Rider has heard. This issue is now on the Active Tracker, I will add additional journal entries. Thanks for the feedback, I'll do my best to remedy this. Sorry for all the frustration, confusion, and whatnot this particular issue has raised. No further votes required here.

[DarkRider]

Thanks for tip on finding the ditched body. Sorry it did not help me. So I should be look at rocks covered in flora, not 'dirt?' I still don't know if Lush and gaudy kept those ivy white. I have been up and down the road, and the adjoining areas several times. No white flowers anywhere. Oh, well. Will go do something else.... RST is so close to being a classic....

No mod will change the color of this particular flora as it's added by RST. Spoiler Attached.

[Arthmoor]

With the exception of a single report of a pathing mod conflict in this area, it seems to be working for most folks so something must be enabling it.

The lamp reaches the ruined dock and lights the lantern there that updates the quest stage and a tracking global. The ship then enables/disables itself on a script similar to a streetlight script. It shows up from midnight till dawn. If you miss it you have to wait for the next one. Nothing creepy about a ghost ship at noon.

Yep. Hana pointed me right. I'll spare you another round of journal details. Suffice it to say the CS and TES4Edit don't readily notice a reference scripting itself unless you're looking for it.

I got it when Dwip said it, I'll take a look when/if I ever dig myself out from under everything else. It was one of the things I asked testers to report on in Beta and any missing journal entries they asked for were added before release, so it's not like I'm deliberately being obtuse about it.

NP. I wasn't meaning to pile on either.

[Pounder]

Any estimated time on release of a next version?

[DarkRider]

Any estimated time on release of a next version?

Work has been delayed by TESA's Halloween Challenge, which is more likely TESA's belated Halloween Challenge at this point. I'm just one me! I seriously need a cloning machine for Christmas or at least a single clone of myself. Sorry bout the delays, It will be updated this week though for sure, maybe Wednesday or Thursday if everything goes well.

[Ysne58]

Thanks for tip on finding the ditched body. Sorry it did not help me. So I should be look at rocks covered in flora, not 'dirt?' I still don't know if Lush and gaudy kept those ivy white. I have been up and down the road, and the adjoining areas several times. No white flowers anywhere. Oh, well. Will go do something else.... RST is so close to being a classic....

Do you remember what the vanilla morning glory vines look like? Look for white ones. Through the east gate and sort of south, near a large boulder by the reservoir.

[Elanaahova]

No mod will change the color of this particular flora as it's added by RST. Spoiler Attached.

Cool. You have considered so many things. Very cool. Thanks......

[Fiore1300]

In the Market District, RST conflicts heavily with Thievery in the Imperial City. Not only does RST and Thievery put a door in the same location, but Thievery also puts a statue in front of the Apartment for Sale that's added by RST.

[Casper]

i found that the journal entries were sufficient to move me in the right direction, and i didn't have much trouble remembering info from dialogue. and i was glad to not have my hand held the entire time. i miss games\mods that actually made me think, where i had to figure out what to do on my own. (one of the reasons i loved the half-life series)

RST is on of the few games\mods i actually had to use the wiki or ask for help on a forum to figure out, i kind of found it refreshing. just my two cents.

[Ysne58]

In the Market District, RST conflicts heavily with Thievery in the Imperial City. Not only does RST and Thievery put a door in the same location, but Thievery also puts a statue in front of the Apartment for Sale that's added by RST.

This hard conflict is listed in the read me. When I was testing I had to take Thievery out because of those conflicts. DR simply did not have time to anything about this one. If you know anyone who wants to fix this and has that mod author's permission, have them contact DR about what to do.

[Hodlin]

Ok I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if I have come across a bug:

On the water warrior quest, all the people and guards in the town only have the rumors dialog, the guards and people inside the fort have the dialog, but tell me no info.

[DarkRider]

This hard conflict is listed in the read me. When I was testing I had to take Thievery out because of those conflicts. DR simply did not have time to anything about this one. If you know anyone who wants to fix this and has that mod author's permission, have them contact DR about what to do.

This is not entirely accurate. Vorians has kindly made a patch but thievery's author appears to be gone from the community and I'm held up on getting permissions to patch it publicly.